German Air to Ground Rockets

[Rob Arndt]

Panzerblitz I:

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Panzerblitz 2:
(see R4M)

Panzerblitz 3:
Similar to AG-140 below

RZ-65 (Me-109F2):
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55 mm R4M:

w/Me-262:

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w/ Ba-349:
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77mm SG-113 Forstersonde (Fw-190):

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210 mm AG-140 (Abschussgerat 140):
(no photo)
The same situation applied with the AG 140 (Abschussgerat 140) missile
system consisting of units with two 210 mm missile launchers different
from Pb 3. The AG 140 system was tested on the following three Fw
190F-8 planes designated as prototypes: V78 (W.Nr. 551103), V79 (W.Nr.
583303) and V80 (W.Nr. 586600).

210mm Wgr-21 (Me-410):

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280/320mm Wgr.28/32:
(no aircraft photo)
carried by Fw-190

Rob

[Dean A. Markley]

Post by Rob Arndt
http://balsi.de/Bilder/panzerblitz1.jpg
(see R4M)
Similar to AG-140 below
http://www.luchtoorlog.be/Images/me109f/rzzb.jpg
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW/Me262-R4M-34.jpg
http://www.fronta.cz/pics/clanky/bachem4.jpg
http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.nom.br/aero/sg113.jpg
(no photo)
The same situation applied with the AG 140 (Abschussgerat 140) missile
system consisting of units with two 210 mm missile launchers different
from Pb 3. The AG 140 system was tested on the following three Fw
190F-8 planes designated as prototypes: V78 (W.Nr. 551103), V79 (W.Nr.
583303) and V80 (W.Nr. 586600).
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/nightfighter/me410/me410n2.jpg
(no aircraft photo)
carried by Fw-190
Rob

I thought R4M rockets were intended as air-to-air rockets?

Dean

[Juergen Nieveler]

Post by Dean A. Markley

Post by Rob Arndt
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW/Me262-R4M-34.jpg
http://www.fronta.cz/pics/clanky/bachem4.jpg

I thought R4M rockets were intended as air-to-air rockets?

Presumably, they flew straight and exploded when hitting something, so
why not use them against ground targets as well... sounds logical
enough, especially when you're desperate. Didn't the USAF use unguided
AARs in an AG-role as well in the 1950s?

But I wouldn't include the Ba-349 "Natter" in the list, that was ONLY
designed as an interceptor, it would have been completely useless in
air- to-ground roles.


Juergen Nieveler

[f***@spamcop.net]

Post by Juergen Nieveler

Post by Dean A. Markley

Post by Rob Arndt
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW/Me262-R4M-34.jpg
http://www.fronta.cz/pics/clanky/bachem4.jpg

I thought R4M rockets were intended as air-to-air rockets?

Presumably, they flew straight and exploded when hitting something, so
why not use them against ground targets as well... sounds logical
enough, especially when you're desperate. Didn't the USAF use unguided
AARs in an AG-role as well in the 1950s?

IIRC early air to air rockets used timed fuses in additional
to, or instead of contact fuses. A timed fuse might adversely
affect air-to-ground use depending on the altitude from which
they were fired.

There is also the question of what warhead would be optimal for
each use.

[Chris Morton]

In article <***@nieveler.org>, Juergen Nieveler
says...

Post by Juergen Nieveler

Post by Dean A. Markley

Post by Rob Arndt
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW/Me262-R4M-34.jpg
http://www.fronta.cz/pics/clanky/bachem4.jpg

I thought R4M rockets were intended as air-to-air rockets?

Presumably, they flew straight and exploded when hitting something, so
why not use them against ground targets as well... sounds logical
enough, especially when you're desperate. Didn't the USAF use unguided
AARs in an AG-role as well in the 1950s?
But I wouldn't include the Ba-349 "Natter" in the list, that was ONLY
designed as an interceptor, it would have been completely useless in
air- to-ground roles.

Not just "useless", but damned near impossible, like using a U-Boat as a
strategic bomber.

[Greg Hennessy]

Post by Chris Morton
Not just "useless", but damned near impossible, like using a U-Boat as a
strategic bomber.

Ardnut will be along in a mo' to tell you that it wasnt impossible at all,
doncha know that Kammlers boot bombers swept antartica clean in 1947.

[Chris Morton]

Post by Greg Hennessy

Post by Chris Morton
Not just "useless", but damned near impossible, like using a U-Boat as a
strategic bomber.

Ardnut will be along in a mo' to tell you that it wasnt impossible at all,
doncha know that Kammlers boot bombers swept antartica clean in 1947.

Like shooting fish in a barrel with a "plasma rifle"! <snicker>

[Grantland]

Post by Chris Morton

Post by Greg Hennessy

Post by Chris Morton
Not just "useless", but damned near impossible, like using a U-Boat as a
strategic bomber.

Ardnut will be along in a mo' to tell you that it wasnt impossible at all,
doncha know that Kammlers boot bombers swept antartica clean in 1947.

Like shooting fish in a barrel with a "plasma rifle"! <snicker>

You reek of death - all of you. Even your name reeks of death, like your
necrophiliac buddy Shnerrd - ugh!

[Rob Arndt]

Chris Moron,

The R4M was so useless in the air-to-ground role that:

After the war the R4M served as the pattern for both the US 2.75" FFAR
(Folding-Fin Areal Rocket) and the larger 5" "Zuni"... as well as many
other unguided rockets around the globe.

Info here on the FFAR/Zuni rockets:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/5in-rockets.html

Rob

p.s. I used the illustration of the R4M in air-to-air because I
couldn't find a Panzerblitz II photo- that's all. The R4M was also used
by the Ba-349 but in a volley-fire launcher- which produced the postwar
variant of slung clustered unguided rocket pods. Guess you couldn;t
figure that one out (as usual)...

[Chris Morton]

In article <***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Rob Arndt
says...
Arndt Intelligent is just as stupid as the rest of the White Power Rangers. He
can't tell the difference between an R4M rocket and the Bachem "Natter" point
defense interceptor. Of course the size ratio between the two is similar to the
size ratio between his brain and that of a vole.

[Krztalizer]

Post by Rob Arndt
p.s. I used the illustration of the R4M in air-to-air because I
couldn't find a Panzerblitz II photo- that's all. The R4M was also used
by the Ba-349 but in a volley-fire launcher- which produced the postwar
variant of slung clustered unguided rocket pods. Guess you couldn;t
figure that one out (as usual)...

I'd always heard that the FÕhn rockets were used in the Natter. The
two rockets are not similar in either size or launch method.

Most of the rest of your "air to ground rockets" were not used or
intended for that role - with very few exceptions, they were purely for
use in the air to air role. I'd love to hear how the vertical launch
SG 113 could be used against a ground target - what did the FW pilot
do, come in inverted to make his attack? When it was tested in front
of Galland, it was described as a method of attacking bombers as the
fighter passed below them - the shadow of the bomber triggering the
rockets. How would the optic launch mechanism be triggered for a
ground attack, and how could they target an object on the ground? The
world wonders.

Gordon

[Rob Arndt]

Gordon,

Talking to your inaccurate Luftwaffe buddies again?


Apart from the previously described missile systems on the Fw 190F-8
plane, other weapon systems for ground attack were tested (e.g. doubled
SG 113 A Forstersonde missile launchers mounted obliquely inside the
wings directed downward. Firing performed automatically using
Forestersonde magnetic field detection principle, when the plane flew
over the tank. In October 1944, at the research facility FGZ
(Forschungsansalt Graf Zeppelin) this device was mounted on the
prototype Fw 190 V75 (W.Nr. 582071) and W.Nr. 586586 planes. In
December 1944, system was also mounted on the Fw 190 (W.Nr. 933452).
This system was found to have low accuracy, so development was
abandoned shortly.

The system you are thinking of is:

SG ...? Harfe - set of 3-4 15-barrel, unguided 20 mm missile launchers
mounted in the rear fuselage on both sides. At least one prototype
plane had such armament and was presented to Gen. Adolf Galland

Definately NOT the same system, just SG number of which there were SG
113/116/117/etc...

Rob

[Rob Arndt]

Gordon,

Also, you might want to look up the Ba-349 development history. The
point defense interceptor was designed to fire 24x 73mm Hs 217 Fohn
rockets OR 33x 55mm R4M.
Apologies for depicting the Ba-349 in the R4M section as it was for
air-to-air use. Same for the Me-262. But I couldn't find a Panzerblitz
2 photo so I wanted to at least depict the rocket which could be fitted
with 3 different warheads.

Rob