Discussion:
Air France: good read on Aviation Int'l News
(too old to reply)
Richard
2011-07-13 12:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
stall:


"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what was
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a
stall recovery from that altitude."

Full article here:
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/pitch-and-power-lessons-from-air-france-flight-447-30323/
Eunometic
2011-07-15 03:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what was
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a
stall recovery from that altitude."
Full article here:http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/pitch-and-powe...
It seems to me the crew did not recognise that with the pitot static
or prandtl speed sensors deactivated they were in alternate law, ie
stall protection had been deactivated. There would have been an
indicator somewhere.

Extra-ordinarily at an angle of attack of 40 degrees they were STILL
trying to lift the nose! It was night, they were disoriented probably
panicking.

My conclusion is this: modern fly by wire aircraft can not be safely
flown with sensors deactivated and envelop protection. The sensor
ruggedness has to be greatly increased. I can also not understand how
stall protetion was lost while the aoa sensors were still functioning

I should point out that when the manual control DASH 8 Colgan Air
Flight 3407 stalled due to icing that the pilots reacted
inappropriatly by pulling on the yoke to get the nose up.

The alternative is weekly simular stall practice and real stalls
several time a year to get pilot skill and reactions up.
Jim Wilkins
2011-07-15 12:52:18 UTC
Permalink
...>
My conclusion is this:   modern fly by wire aircraft can not be safely
flown with sensors deactivated and envelop protection.  The sensor
ruggedness has to be greatly increased.  I can also not understand how
stall protetion was lost while the aoa sensors were still functioning
...
The Wiki stated that the pitch sensors all agreed, not that they were
known to be accurate.

jsw
Grantland
2011-07-15 03:58:40 UTC
Permalink
...and there should be a goddamned oldfashioned set of common or garden spirit levels mounted for pitch and roll. Sheesh!
David E. Powell
2011-07-15 08:00:03 UTC
Permalink
...and there should be a goddamned oldfashioned set of common or garden spirit levels mounted for pitch and roll.  Sheesh!
I agree. At night they must have lost their natural sense of bearing.
Old school mechanical indicators as backups would be wise. Throw a
little glow paint on them for night backup.
Dan
2011-07-15 08:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
Post by Grantland
...and there should be a goddamned oldfashioned set of common or garden spirit levels mounted for pitch and roll. Sheesh!
I agree. At night they must have lost their natural sense of bearing.
Old school mechanical indicators as backups would be wise. Throw a
little glow paint on them for night backup.
David, grantland is a near perfect moron. Spirit levels will show
straight and level during a coordinated turn.

As for mechanical back up indicators you will see them in many glass
cockpits. You will even find self contained 2 inch attitude indicators
in cockpits without glass panels.

Redundancy in commercial instrumentation is common. For example both
pilot and copilot have their own pitot-static system. They each have
static ports and pitot tubes on both sides of the airplane.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
vaughn
2011-07-15 12:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
Post by Grantland
...and there should be a goddamned oldfashioned set of common or garden
spirit levels mounted for pitch and roll. Sheesh!
I agree. At night they must have lost their natural sense of bearing.
Old school mechanical indicators as backups would be wise. Throw a
little glow paint on them for night backup.
David, grantland is a near perfect moron. Spirit levels will show straight
and level during a coordinated turn.
Yep! Years ago I used to rent a glider that had a spirit level mounted on the
panel rather than a ball-type turn coordinator. It worked, but it drove me
crazy because it worked opposite to a ball. (Rather than "step on the ball" it
was "step away from the bubble".)

Vaughn
Jim Wilkins
2011-07-15 12:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
Post by Grantland
...and there should be a goddamned oldfashioned set of common or garden
spirit levels mounted for pitch and roll.  Sheesh!
I agree. At night they must have lost their natural sense of bearing.
Old school mechanical indicators as backups would be wise. Throw a
little glow paint on them for night backup.
  David, grantland is a near perfect moron. Spirit levels will show straight
and level during a coordinated turn.
Yep!  Years ago I used to rent a glider that had a spirit level mounted on the
panel rather than a ball-type turn coordinator.  It worked, but it drove me
crazy because it worked opposite to a ball.  (Rather than "step on the ball" it
was "step away from the bubble".)
Vaughn
A similar reverse-reading instrument was implicated in the Buddy Holly
crash:
http://www.fiftiesweb.com/cab.htm

Actually the Sperry F3 reads directly, without mechanical
complications, but the pilot views the wrong side so it inverts sky
and ground.
http://www.lets-go-fly.com/safety-one.html

Would a spirit level be off center if you were landing in a crosswind?

jsw
vaughn
2011-07-15 20:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Would a spirit level be off center if you were landing in a crosswind?
That depends: Like a turn coordinator, it will be off center in a slip.and
should stay centered in a pure crab.

Vaughn
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-15 15:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by vaughn
Post by Dan
Post by David E. Powell
Post by Grantland
...and there should be a goddamned oldfashioned set of common or
garden spirit levels mounted for pitch and roll. Sheesh!
I agree. At night they must have lost their natural sense of
bearing. Old school mechanical indicators as backups would be wise.
Throw a little glow paint on them for night backup.
David, grantland is a near perfect moron. Spirit levels will show
straight and level during a coordinated turn.
Yep! Years ago I used to rent a glider that had a spirit level
mounted on the panel rather than a ball-type turn coordinator. It
worked, but it drove me crazy because it worked opposite to a ball.
(Rather than "step on the ball" it was "step away from the bubble".)
Vaughn
IRC correctly the original blind flying panel in the Fairey Swordfish
had a spirit level to show turn and bank info with a liitle lamp for
flying at night.

Keith
Eunometic
2011-07-15 13:41:35 UTC
Permalink
...and there should be a goddamned oldfashioned set of common or garden spirit levels mounted for pitch and roll.  Sheesh!
There was no loss of artificial horizon, the entire crew did react to
the instrument or interpret it correctly, they did not indentify that
they were in a 40 degree pitch up stall and falling 10000ft a minute.

Spirit levels, balls in fluid were once used as flight instruments,
however they react to the forces of turning, climbing, zero-G etc.

The only instrument the aircraft lost was the the airspeed indicator,
this disconected the stall protection from the fbw system.

I can not see why the flight control system did not provide stall
protection as the angle of attack sensors were still functional.

Anyway, the pitot static sensors were clearly a crap design.
Grantland
2011-07-15 08:19:13 UTC
Permalink
bullshit
150flivver
2011-07-15 08:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grantland
bullshit
I'm happy to see that you've condensed your posts down to their true
essence. Saves much time sifting through them.
Grantland
2011-07-15 08:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Oh shit, it seems that he's right. About the acceleration anyway. Emergency backup? When flying steady -
Grantland
2011-07-15 08:26:31 UTC
Permalink
Dull Dan is confusing a lateral accelerometer (massy ball in a curved tube) with a carpenters common-or-garden spirit level (bubble in a tube).
Dan
2011-07-15 10:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grantland
Dull Dan is confusing a lateral accelerometer (massy ball in a curved tube) with a carpenters common-or-garden spirit level (bubble in a tube).
It doesn't matter, einstein, in a coordinated turn the ball will
remain centered due to centrifugal force. If you don't believe me hire
an airplane and watch the ball in a turn and bank indicator during a
coordinated turn. Didn't they teach you basic science in your yeshiva?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Grantland
2011-07-15 14:06:11 UTC
Permalink
My replies came out of turn. "Dull Dan" I posted at 10.26, then "Oh shit" at 10.59. No biggie. As for not twinking the acceleration sooner, I make mistakes; you *are* a mistake.

Grantland
Anne Onime
2011-07-15 14:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what was
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a
stall recovery from that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at the
pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault. The
pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably wouldn't have in
this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that fact that there was a
big design fault in the computer software that controls the plane.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-15 15:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what was
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a
stall recovery from that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at the
pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault. The
pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably wouldn't have
in this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that fact that there
was a big design fault in the computer software that controls the
plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.

Keith
Anne Onime
2011-07-16 20:53:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what was
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a
stall recovery from that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at the
pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault. The
pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably wouldn't have
in this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that fact that there
was a big design fault in the computer software that controls the
plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal or
erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots were
unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the erroneous
sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead it kept trying to
fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known that the computers were
getting erroneous input and may not have been able to shut off
automatic flight control systems that were flying the plane.

Pilots always need to be able to shut down automatic control systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And computers
should always be able to detect when they are getting erroneous sensor
input and warn the pilots when they do. If a sensor is defective then
the flight model programmed into the computers doesn't work anymore and
could easily make things worse, like it did in this case.
Bob Martin
2011-07-17 06:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what
was
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated
a
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
stall recovery from that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at the
pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault. The
pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably wouldn't have
in this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that fact that there
was a big design fault in the computer software that controls the
plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal or
erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots were
unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the erroneous
sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead it kept trying to
fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known that the computers were
getting erroneous input and may not have been able to shut off
automatic flight control systems that were flying the plane.
Pilots always need to be able to shut down automatic control systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And computers
should always be able to detect when they are getting erroneous sensor
input and warn the pilots when they do. If a sensor is defective then
the flight model programmed into the computers doesn't work anymore and
could easily make things worse, like it did in this case.
A lot of supposition there!
Daryl
2011-07-17 07:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what
was
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated
a
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
stall recovery from that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at the
pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault. The
pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably wouldn't have
in this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that fact that there
was a big design fault in the computer software that controls the
plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal or
erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots were
unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the erroneous
sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead it kept trying to
fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known that the computers were
getting erroneous input and may not have been able to shut off
automatic flight control systems that were flying the plane.
Pilots always need to be able to shut down automatic control systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And computers
should always be able to detect when they are getting erroneous sensor
input and warn the pilots when they do. If a sensor is defective then
the flight model programmed into the computers doesn't work anymore and
could easily make things worse, like it did in this case.
A lot of supposition there!
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on
the Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same
parts. What you don't get with the parts is the Software to go
with it. Toyota wrote their own.

Now the problem. In a Chrysler with keyless ignition, there is a
3 second delay before the engine shuts off. Not a real problem
by itself. Now, during those three seconds, imagine if the
throttle locked wide open. Hence the Toyota problem. Chrysler
has a safety circuit that overrides the throttle circuit when you
apply the brakes. Toyota left that out. 3 seconds of hard
acceleration. Not my idea of an enjoyable drive if it's not done
on purpose. 3 seconds means the difference between 75 mph and
115 mph.

Now, what about the keyed ignition systems. Chrysler, you just
apply the brakes which disengages the throttle until you come to
a stop. Then without releasing the brake, turn the ignition off.
No foul. Call a tow truck.

On some of the Toyotas without the keyless ignition, when the
throttle locked wide open, you had to stand on the brakes and
slow the vehicle down that way. Terror for most drivers and
fatalities for some. Toyota installed an improper control in
their electronic throttle.

Software makes all the difference. I have two different version
of controllers. One malfunctions and locks wide open. Not a
terrible thing on something with much better brakes than power.
The other has that circuit built in to disable the motor when
there is a problem.

Both systems have the brake lockout that Toyota left out of theirs.

I imagine this may have been a software problem. And from the
Looks of things, Airbus has a problem in that area.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-17 10:59:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Keith Willshaw
news:64717566-faea-
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the
crew was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying,
but rather falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did
understand what was happening, why were they unable to take the
required action to make the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan
crash at Buffalo, neither member of that crew had ever
experienced a stick shaker/pusher combination as the aircraft
stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a stall recovery from
that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at
the pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault.
The pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably
wouldn't have in this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that
fact that there was a big design fault in the computer software
that controls the plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal or
erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots were
unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the
erroneous sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead it
kept trying to fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known that
the computers were getting erroneous input and may not have been
able to shut off automatic flight control systems that were flying
the plane. Pilots always need to be able to shut down automatic control
systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And computers
should always be able to detect when they are getting erroneous
sensor input and warn the pilots when they do. If a sensor is
defective then the flight model programmed into the computers
doesn't work anymore and could easily make things worse, like it
did in this case.
A lot of supposition there!
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on
the Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same
parts. What you don't get with the parts is the Software to go
with it. Toyota wrote their own.
It isn't

The cockpit voice recorder indicated that the autopilot had disconnected
and the aircraft was being flown in Alternate Law mode in which the
aircraft is essentially flown manually with yaw and pitch being controlled
by the
pilot alone.

Keith
Daryl
2011-07-17 11:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Keith Willshaw
news:64717566-faea-
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the
crew was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying,
but rather falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did
understand what was happening, why were they unable to take the
required action to make the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan
crash at Buffalo, neither member of that crew had ever
experienced a stick shaker/pusher combination as the aircraft
stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a stall recovery from
that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at
the pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault.
The pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably
wouldn't have in this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that
fact that there was a big design fault in the computer software
that controls the plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal or
erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots were
unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the
erroneous sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead it
kept trying to fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known that
the computers were getting erroneous input and may not have been
able to shut off automatic flight control systems that were flying
the plane. Pilots always need to be able to shut down automatic control
systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And computers
should always be able to detect when they are getting erroneous
sensor input and warn the pilots when they do. If a sensor is
defective then the flight model programmed into the computers
doesn't work anymore and could easily make things worse, like it
did in this case.
A lot of supposition there!
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on
the Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same
parts. What you don't get with the parts is the Software to go
with it. Toyota wrote their own.
It isn't
The cockpit voice recorder indicated that the autopilot had disconnected
and the aircraft was being flown in Alternate Law mode in which the
aircraft is essentially flown manually with yaw and pitch being controlled
by the
pilot alone.
Keith
And why would they be doing this with a triple redundant system?
Triple redundancy is about the fewest number these days. The
chance of all 3 failing is pretty danged slim. In fact, it's off
the charts unless there is something wrong with the software.

Now, explain whay it was being flown that way. It isn't is not
an answer.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-17 13:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Keith Willshaw
news:64717566-faea-
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the
crew was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying,
but rather falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did
understand what was happening, why were they unable to take the
required action to make the Airbus fly again? In the 2009
Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither member of that crew had ever
experienced a stick shaker/pusher combination as the aircraft
stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a stall recovery from
that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger
at the pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at
fault. The pilots may not have responded correctly (most
probably wouldn't have in this case) but that still shouldn't
obscure that fact that there was a big design fault in the
computer software that controls the plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal or
erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots were
unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the
erroneous sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead it
kept trying to fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known that
the computers were getting erroneous input and may not have been
able to shut off automatic flight control systems that were flying
the plane. Pilots always need to be able to shut down automatic
control systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And
computers should always be able to detect when they are getting
erroneous sensor input and warn the pilots when they do. If a sensor
is
defective then the flight model programmed into the computers
doesn't work anymore and could easily make things worse, like it
did in this case.
A lot of supposition there!
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on
the Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same
parts. What you don't get with the parts is the Software to go
with it. Toyota wrote their own.
It isn't
The cockpit voice recorder indicated that the autopilot had
disconnected and the aircraft was being flown in Alternate Law mode
in which the aircraft is essentially flown manually with yaw and
pitch being controlled by the
pilot alone.
Keith
And why would they be doing this with a triple redundant system?
Triple redundancy is about the fewest number these days. The
chance of all 3 failing is pretty danged slim. In fact, it's off
the charts unless there is something wrong with the software.
Now, explain whay it was being flown that way. It isn't is not
an answer.
The computers didnt fail, there was a design fault with the pitot tubes
in estreme icing conditions which caused the problem. There had been
a recommendation issued advising a switch from the Thales tubes fitted
originally to alternate tubes from Goodrich. Air France had not made the
switch
on the crashed aircraft.

Without accurate IAS the computer system is designed to go
into alternate law mode and give full control to the pilots.

This has been well covered by the press.

Keith
Daryl
2011-07-17 13:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Keith Willshaw
news:64717566-faea-
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the
crew was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying,
but rather falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did
understand what was happening, why were they unable to take the
required action to make the Airbus fly again? In the 2009
Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither member of that crew had ever
experienced a stick shaker/pusher combination as the aircraft
stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a stall recovery from
that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger
at the pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at
fault. The pilots may not have responded correctly (most
probably wouldn't have in this case) but that still shouldn't
obscure that fact that there was a big design fault in the
computer software that controls the plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal or
erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots were
unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the
erroneous sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead it
kept trying to fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known that
the computers were getting erroneous input and may not have been
able to shut off automatic flight control systems that were flying
the plane. Pilots always need to be able to shut down automatic
control systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And
computers should always be able to detect when they are getting
erroneous sensor input and warn the pilots when they do. If a sensor
is
defective then the flight model programmed into the computers
doesn't work anymore and could easily make things worse, like it
did in this case.
A lot of supposition there!
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on
the Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same
parts. What you don't get with the parts is the Software to go
with it. Toyota wrote their own.
It isn't
The cockpit voice recorder indicated that the autopilot had
disconnected and the aircraft was being flown in Alternate Law mode
in which the aircraft is essentially flown manually with yaw and
pitch being controlled by the
pilot alone.
Keith
And why would they be doing this with a triple redundant system?
Triple redundancy is about the fewest number these days. The
chance of all 3 failing is pretty danged slim. In fact, it's off
the charts unless there is something wrong with the software.
Now, explain whay it was being flown that way. It isn't is not
an answer.
The computers didnt fail, there was a design fault with the pitot tubes
in estreme icing conditions which caused the problem. There had been
a recommendation issued advising a switch from the Thales tubes fitted
originally to alternate tubes from Goodrich. Air France had not made the
switch
on the crashed aircraft.
Without accurate IAS the computer system is designed to go
into alternate law mode and give full control to the pilots.
This has been well covered by the press.
Keith
Now you give the answer. The fault lies in the pitot tube on the
existing Airbus. The Upgrades weren't made and crashes were the
results.

A decent autopilot can handle weather quite well as long as it's
not a typhoon or a Hurricane. To have to go manually on the
really big beasties is a harbinger of danger. To continue to fly
a plane with a faulty part is just plain unforgivable. The next
question comes to mind, how many others have not been upgraded.

Air France is off my list of airline companies unless I feel
living dangerously.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-17 14:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Keith Willshaw
news:64717566-faea-
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why
the crew was unable to recognize that the airplane was not
flying, but rather falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If
they did understand what was happening, why were they unable
to take the required action to make the Airbus fly again? In
the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither member of that
crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher combination
as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a
stall recovery from that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger
at the pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at
fault. The pilots may not have responded correctly (most
probably wouldn't have in this case) but that still shouldn't
obscure that fact that there was a big design fault in the
computer software that controls the plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal
or erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots
were unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the
erroneous sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead
it kept trying to fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known
that the computers were getting erroneous input and may not
have been able to shut off automatic flight control systems
that were flying the plane. Pilots always need to be able to
shut down automatic control systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And
computers should always be able to detect when they are getting
erroneous sensor input and warn the pilots when they do. If a
sensor is
defective then the flight model programmed into the computers
doesn't work anymore and could easily make things worse, like it
did in this case.
A lot of supposition there!
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on
the Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same
parts. What you don't get with the parts is the Software to go
with it. Toyota wrote their own.
It isn't
The cockpit voice recorder indicated that the autopilot had
disconnected and the aircraft was being flown in Alternate Law mode
in which the aircraft is essentially flown manually with yaw and
pitch being controlled by the
pilot alone.
Keith
And why would they be doing this with a triple redundant system?
Triple redundancy is about the fewest number these days. The
chance of all 3 failing is pretty danged slim. In fact, it's off
the charts unless there is something wrong with the software.
Now, explain whay it was being flown that way. It isn't is not
an answer.
The computers didnt fail, there was a design fault with the pitot
tubes in estreme icing conditions which caused the problem. There
had been a recommendation issued advising a switch from the Thales tubes
fitted originally to alternate tubes from Goodrich. Air France had
not made the switch
on the crashed aircraft.
Without accurate IAS the computer system is designed to go
into alternate law mode and give full control to the pilots.
This has been well covered by the press.
Keith
Now you give the answer.
I gave that answer in my first post in this thread.
Post by Daryl
The fault lies in the pitot tube on the
existing Airbus. The Upgrades weren't made and crashes were the
results.
Exactly as has been widely reported.
Post by Daryl
A decent autopilot can handle weather quite well as long as it's
not a typhoon or a Hurricane. To have to go manually on the
really big beasties is a harbinger of danger. To continue to fly
a plane with a faulty part is just plain unforgivable. The next
question comes to mind, how many others have not been upgraded.
All of them, the original recommendation has been upgraded to
a mandatory directive.

Keith
Paul F Austin
2011-07-17 12:03:37 UTC
Permalink
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on the
Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same parts. What
their own.
Now the problem. In a Chrysler with keyless ignition, there is a 3
second delay before the engine shuts off. Not a real problem by itself.
Now, during those three seconds, imagine if the throttle locked wide
open. Hence the Toyota problem. Chrysler has a safety circuit that
overrides the throttle circuit when you apply the brakes. Toyota left
that out. 3 seconds of hard acceleration. Not my idea of an enjoyable
drive if it's not done on purpose. 3 seconds means the difference
between 75 mph and 115 mph.
Now, what about the keyed ignition systems. Chrysler, you just apply the
brakes which disengages the throttle until you come to a stop. Then
without releasing the brake, turn the ignition off. No foul. Call a tow
truck.
On some of the Toyotas without the keyless ignition, when the throttle
locked wide open, you had to stand on the brakes and slow the vehicle
down that way. Terror for most drivers and fatalities for some. Toyota
installed an improper control in their electronic throttle.
Software makes all the difference. I have two different version of
controllers. One malfunctions and locks wide open. Not a terrible thing
on something with much better brakes than power. The other has that
circuit built in to disable the motor when there is a problem.
Both systems have the brake lockout that Toyota left out of theirs.
I imagine this may have been a software problem. And from the Looks of
things, Airbus has a problem in that area.
Nice summary of what didn't happen, Daryl. Try to keep up. Analysis of
the Toyota "throttle problems" focused in the end on the right foot of
the driver. To the great disappointment of the ambulance-chaser bar, the
NHTSA found that "peddle misapplication" was the likely cause of Priuses
Flying Down the Highway. NHTSA subcontracted much of the testing and
analysis to NASA. Here's what they found:

1. "NASA did not find that the ETC (Electronic Throttle Control)
electronics are a likely cause of large throttle openings in Toyota
vehicles as descrived in consumers' complaints to NHTSA"

2. "NASA found that many safety features are designed into the ETC
system...NASA found no flaws in the software code controling the Toyota
ETC system that would cause UA (Unintended Accelleration)."

3. "NASA also found that electromagnetic compatibility (EMC)
testing...did not produce an open throttle"

4. "NASA found no evidence that any failures of the ETC system had an
effect on the performance of the braking system."

Here's the link to the executive summary:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nvs/pdf/NHTSA_report_execsum.pdf

Paul
Daryl
2011-07-17 12:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul F Austin
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on the
Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same
parts. What
you don't get with the parts is the Software to go with it.
their own.
Now the problem. In a Chrysler with keyless ignition, there is a 3
second delay before the engine shuts off. Not a real problem by itself.
Now, during those three seconds, imagine if the throttle locked wide
open. Hence the Toyota problem. Chrysler has a safety circuit that
overrides the throttle circuit when you apply the brakes.
Toyota left
that out. 3 seconds of hard acceleration. Not my idea of an
enjoyable
drive if it's not done on purpose. 3 seconds means the difference
between 75 mph and 115 mph.
Now, what about the keyed ignition systems. Chrysler, you just apply the
brakes which disengages the throttle until you come to a stop. Then
without releasing the brake, turn the ignition off. No foul.
Call a tow
truck.
On some of the Toyotas without the keyless ignition, when the
throttle
locked wide open, you had to stand on the brakes and slow the
vehicle
down that way. Terror for most drivers and fatalities for some. Toyota
installed an improper control in their electronic throttle.
Software makes all the difference. I have two different version of
controllers. One malfunctions and locks wide open. Not a
terrible thing
on something with much better brakes than power. The other has that
circuit built in to disable the motor when there is a problem.
Both systems have the brake lockout that Toyota left out of
theirs.
I imagine this may have been a software problem. And from the
Looks of
things, Airbus has a problem in that area.
Nice summary of what didn't happen, Daryl. Try to keep up.
Analysis of the Toyota "throttle problems" focused in the end on
the right foot of the driver. To the great disappointment of the
ambulance-chaser bar, the NHTSA found that "peddle
misapplication" was the likely cause of Priuses Flying Down the
Highway. NHTSA subcontracted much of the testing and analysis to
1. "NASA did not find that the ETC (Electronic Throttle Control)
electronics are a likely cause of large throttle openings in
Toyota vehicles as descrived in consumers' complaints to NHTSA"
2. "NASA found that many safety features are designed into the
ETC system...NASA found no flaws in the software code controling
the Toyota ETC system that would cause UA (Unintended
Accelleration)."
3. "NASA also found that electromagnetic compatibility (EMC)
testing...did not produce an open throttle"
4. "NASA found no evidence that any failures of the ETC system
had an effect on the performance of the braking system."
http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nvs/pdf/NHTSA_report_execsum.pdf
Paul
According to that report, it never happened. Yet it did. And
the most likely reason was put out by Chrysler that uses the same
control units except for different software.

It's been duplicated by other sources. Toyota claims it was a
mechanical problem with sticking throttle pedals. Fine. But if
the control for disengaging the electronic throttle were linked
to the brakes, no big thing. They left that part out.

As long as they deny that this is a problem, I don't suggest
anyone buy any car with that control system.

If it had the brake override in the system, people would have
been able to bring the vehicle to a stop even IF the throttle was
stuck (shims are available to cure the stuck throttle problem).
According to Toyota, only 2 models were affected yet there were
quite a few recalled to receive these shims.

Mechanical things stick. That's pretty well a fact of life.
Next time they throttle sticks in a Toyota, the same thing will
happen. You will have a runaway vehicle until you can get it
shut down or braked to a full stop and shut it down by excessive
braking. Until you shut it down, the engine will be under full
power.

Are you saying Toyota hasn't addressed this little design flaw?
It's a huge flaw. When is started using cheap electrics, they
had this flaw. Today, the same companies have the brake override
built in. If a friggin Electric Bike can address this problem
does that make them smarter and safer than a Toyota?
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Daryl
2011-07-17 13:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul F Austin
It appears this is right up there with the Throttle Control on the
Toyotas. the saw the Chrysler throttle and ordered the same
parts. What
you don't get with the parts is the Software to go with it.
their own.
Now the problem. In a Chrysler with keyless ignition, there is a 3
second delay before the engine shuts off. Not a real problem by itself.
Now, during those three seconds, imagine if the throttle locked wide
open. Hence the Toyota problem. Chrysler has a safety circuit that
overrides the throttle circuit when you apply the brakes.
Toyota left
that out. 3 seconds of hard acceleration. Not my idea of an
enjoyable
drive if it's not done on purpose. 3 seconds means the difference
between 75 mph and 115 mph.
Now, what about the keyed ignition systems. Chrysler, you just apply the
brakes which disengages the throttle until you come to a stop. Then
without releasing the brake, turn the ignition off. No foul.
Call a tow
truck.
On some of the Toyotas without the keyless ignition, when the throttle
locked wide open, you had to stand on the brakes and slow the vehicle
down that way. Terror for most drivers and fatalities for some. Toyota
installed an improper control in their electronic throttle.
Software makes all the difference. I have two different
version of
controllers. One malfunctions and locks wide open. Not a
terrible thing
on something with much better brakes than power. The other has that
circuit built in to disable the motor when there is a problem.
Both systems have the brake lockout that Toyota left out of
theirs.
I imagine this may have been a software problem. And from the Looks of
things, Airbus has a problem in that area.
Nice summary of what didn't happen, Daryl. Try to keep up.
Analysis of the Toyota "throttle problems" focused in the end on
the right foot of the driver. To the great disappointment of the
ambulance-chaser bar, the NHTSA found that "peddle
misapplication" was the likely cause of Priuses Flying Down the
Highway. NHTSA subcontracted much of the testing and analysis to
1. "NASA did not find that the ETC (Electronic Throttle Control)
electronics are a likely cause of large throttle openings in
Toyota vehicles as descrived in consumers' complaints to NHTSA"
2. "NASA found that many safety features are designed into the
ETC system...NASA found no flaws in the software code controling
the Toyota ETC system that would cause UA (Unintended
Accelleration)."
3. "NASA also found that electromagnetic compatibility (EMC)
testing...did not produce an open throttle"
4. "NASA found no evidence that any failures of the ETC system
had an effect on the performance of the braking system."
http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nvs/pdf/NHTSA_report_execsum.pdf
Paul
According to that report, it never happened. Yet it did. And the
most likely reason was put out by Chrysler that uses the same
control units except for different software.
It's been duplicated by other sources. Toyota claims it was a
mechanical problem with sticking throttle pedals. Fine. But if
the control for disengaging the electronic throttle were linked
to the brakes, no big thing. They left that part out.
As long as they deny that this is a problem, I don't suggest
anyone buy any car with that control system.
If it had the brake override in the system, people would have
been able to bring the vehicle to a stop even IF the throttle was
stuck (shims are available to cure the stuck throttle problem).
According to Toyota, only 2 models were affected yet there were
quite a few recalled to receive these shims.
Mechanical things stick. That's pretty well a fact of life. Next
time they throttle sticks in a Toyota, the same thing will
happen. You will have a runaway vehicle until you can get it shut
down or braked to a full stop and shut it down by excessive
braking. Until you shut it down, the engine will be under full
power.
Are you saying Toyota hasn't addressed this little design flaw?
It's a huge flaw. When is started using cheap electrics, they had
this flaw. Today, the same companies have the brake override
built in. If a friggin Electric Bike can address this problem
does that make them smarter and safer than a Toyota?
Here is the real fix.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/17/autos/brake_override/index.htm?iid=EL

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- There's one safety feature that Toyota
could have had in its cars for years that would have stopped
many, perhaps even most, cases of unintended acceleration -- it's
called 'brake override.'

Toyota has been saying for several weeks that it will add the
feature to all of its new cars, and singled out the technology
again at a press conference in Japan Wednesday.

Brake override -- or "smart throttle" -- is a software algorithm
that acts as a tie-breaker between the gas pedal and the brake
pedal. Once you step on the brakes, even if the gas pedal is
pressed down at the same time, the car assumes you no longer want
to accelerate.


Now you can buy a Toyota with the brake override. Wow, and to
think the million or so Toyotas running around without it.

From experience, the likely cause of this runaway condition
would have been moisture in the control unit. At that point, two
things is going to happen. It stops working (goes dead) or it
locks wide open. I have to seal all my controllers to use them
in the weather otherwise, two of these things may happen.

Now, don't have a brake override and you definately have a
problem some of the time. And that was the real problem, not the
fact the throttle stuck, the floor mat trapped the pedal. It was
that there was NO Brake override system.

NASA can test good units till they are blue in the face and not
get one to malfunction. Introduce moisture and one of those two
malfunctions will happen. I see it all the time.

The fix for both is to dry out the controller. Time will do
that. It may be a few minutes or a few hours. But drying it out
will normally correct the problem.

Even when it stops working completely. The Electronics today are
pretty robust. But until it's completely dried out, you are
going to have one of those two conditions.

Funny, by the time the tow truck shows up, it will probably be
okay. The sun beating down on the hood of the car dries out just
about anything under the hood in a very short order if you just
stop.

I have two bikes. One has the control unit encased in a weather
proof box while the other doesn't. When it rains, the one that
is encased could care less and operates just fine. The other
one, don't turn it on in the rain because it's going to go full
power or not work at all.

When that happens, turn the power off to the controller. Wait
until the sun shines a bit and then power it up. When it no
longer goes to full power or it starts to operate normally then
everything is fine. I have been meaning to break out the sealer
on it for quite some time but just haven't found the time. That
fixes it for good.

But if it happens (Sometimes it rains on the way home) just hit
the brakes and the brake override disengages the controller no
matter what. Get it stopped and kill the power. No big deal.

I can bet that moisture had a lot to do with all this plus the
lack of a decent override.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-17 14:28:06 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Daryl
Post by Daryl
Are you saying Toyota hasn't addressed this little design flaw?
It's a huge flaw. When is started using cheap electrics, they had
this flaw. Today, the same companies have the brake override
built in. If a friggin Electric Bike can address this problem
does that make them smarter and safer than a Toyota?
Here is the real fix.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/17/autos/brake_override/index.htm?iid=EL
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- There's one safety feature that Toyota
could have had in its cars for years that would have stopped
many, perhaps even most, cases of unintended acceleration -- it's
called 'brake override.'
Alternatively of course you could just use manual transmission which
is my preferred solution although as it happens my (Volkswagen Audi Group)
car does have this mode built in along ESC, traction control and ABS brakes.

Keith
Daryl
2011-07-18 01:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
<snip>
Post by Daryl
Post by Daryl
Are you saying Toyota hasn't addressed this little design flaw?
It's a huge flaw. When is started using cheap electrics, they had
this flaw. Today, the same companies have the brake override
built in. If a friggin Electric Bike can address this problem
does that make them smarter and safer than a Toyota?
Here is the real fix.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/17/autos/brake_override/index.htm?iid=EL
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- There's one safety feature that Toyota
could have had in its cars for years that would have stopped
many, perhaps even most, cases of unintended acceleration -- it's
called 'brake override.'
Alternatively of course you could just use manual transmission which
is my preferred solution although as it happens my (Volkswagen Audi Group)
car does have this mode built in along ESC, traction control and ABS brakes.
You could, yes. But that is just another way of trying to cover
up a flaw. The Flaw is software. Chrysler made this claim about
toyota from the very first since they had been using the same
throttles and control units before Toyota had. Toyota copied the
hardware but blew the software end of it.

I wonder how many other systems throughout the world that has
copied the US manufacturers are in the same boat. Not just cars,
but Aircraft as well.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 08:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Alternatively of course you could just use manual transmission which
is my preferred solution although as it happens my (Volkswagen Audi
Group) car does have this mode built in along ESC, traction control
and ABS brakes.
You could, yes. But that is just another way of trying to cover
up a flaw.
Actually it avoids it altogether, there is no real possibility of a runaway
with stick shift.
Post by Daryl
The Flaw is software. Chrysler made this claim about
toyota from the very first since they had been using the same
throttles and control units before Toyota had. Toyota copied the
hardware but blew the software end of it.
Not according to the NHSA report, they are quite clear the issue
in most cases was drivers hitting the wrong pedal with some instances
of mechanical sticking of the throttle.

The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.

Note that Brake Overide is fitted to less than 50% of cars sold in the USA
Most Ford and GM models don't have it either. Note further that in 2010
Chrysler had to issue a recall on Dodge and Jeep models to fix sticking
throttles.

Keith
Daryl
2011-07-18 08:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Alternatively of course you could just use manual transmission which
is my preferred solution although as it happens my (Volkswagen Audi
Group) car does have this mode built in along ESC, traction control
and ABS brakes.
You could, yes. But that is just another way of trying to cover
up a flaw.
Actually it avoids it altogether, there is no real possibility of a runaway
with stick shift.
Yes, you are right. With a non panicked experienced driver. Not
a whole lot of those running around these days. It's a flaw.
Just admit it and move on. I have a whole lot more experience in
electric vehicles than you do and it shows.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
The Flaw is software. Chrysler made this claim about
toyota from the very first since they had been using the same
throttles and control units before Toyota had. Toyota copied the
hardware but blew the software end of it.
Not according to the NHSA report, they are quite clear the issue
in most cases was drivers hitting the wrong pedal with some instances
of mechanical sticking of the throttle.
According to the NHSA, these things might be true. But the
prevent was never put in like GM, and Ford. Not to mention
Mercedes, Volkwagon, and tons of others. Tells me to wait until
the next problem with a toyota happens and to not be surprised.
But I can bet the driver it happens to will certainly be surprised.

Yet, the prevent has been in electric vehicles for the last 10
years. In fact, most electric vehicles have something called
Regen Braking. Just by touching the brake, you get enough
braking from the motor to keep you from using your brakes except
for a complete stop of a panic stop. And it doesn't matter where
your throttle is set at since it is disengaged. Guess us
Electric people are smarter than you gas folks. Well all except
Chrysler who saw the lack of a brake throttle override as a
problem and included it.
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are
automatic (sorry about the big word) and not manual. MOST cars,
if the throttle locks wide open will go into full acceleration.
some cars have a lockout to go to neutral from drive, you have to
press a button on the shifter. MOST cars have inexperienced
drivers driving them. MOST Drives will go into full on panick if
this happens. Drivers will try and shut of the ignition and the
steering wheel will go into lock. Hello Panic.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Note that Brake Overide is fitted to less than 50% of cars sold in the USA
Most Ford and GM models don't have it either. Note further that in 2010
Chrysler had to issue a recall on Dodge and Jeep models to fix sticking
throttles.
Yes, because they used the same hardware that Toyota used.
Mostly, it was check and release. Those same cars had the Brake
Lockout on the system so it wasn't nearly as dangerous. It
wasn't Chrysler that caused the recall, it was Toyota. You will
not that not one single Chrysler, GM or Ford is reported to the
throttle being lock full on during the time period we are talking
about.

As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On
an electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two
throttles. One is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I
have seen too many inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the
twist grip to a more comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze
on the handlebars and get creamed. I always suggest new riders
to use the Thumb throttle because if you do panic, your thumb
automatically grips the grips which releases the throttle. Panic
does happen. All riders aren't 1 million mile riders.
Experienced MC riders don't buy electric. But, most of all, I
explain to them about the brake throttle lockout. Even in panic
there is a good chance they are going to go for at least the left
hand brake.

I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic
(let me say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic
today) you only have two pedals. One Accel and one Brake pedal.
You hit the wrong one, move the to the right one. Even a
panicked driver will move to the brake pedal quickly. If they
don't then they have no business being on the highways in the
first place.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Jeff Crowell
2011-07-18 12:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are automatic
(sorry about the big word) and not manual. MOST cars, if the throttle
locks wide open will go into full acceleration. some cars have a lockout
to go to neutral from drive, you have to press a button on the shifter.
MOST cars have inexperienced drivers driving them. MOST Drives will go
into full on panick if this happens. Drivers will try and shut of the
ignition and the steering wheel will go into lock. Hello Panic.
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.

I haven't tried it, but it sure seems like the sensible thing
to do would be to shift into neutral if you get a jam
accelerate (but then, I also would have mashed the start
button and held it down.... which apparently would have
worked).
As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On an
electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two throttles. One
is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I have seen too many
inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the twist grip to a more
comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze on the handlebars and get
creamed. I always suggest new riders to use the Thumb throttle because
if you do panic, your thumb automatically grips the grips which releases
the throttle.
Meh. I've seen as many people get into trouble with a thumb
throttle as a twist. If you panic and squeeze your hand, you
also tend to press with your thumb. I've seen it done.
I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic (let me
say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic today) you only
have two pedals. One Accel and one Brake pedal. You hit the wrong one,
move the to the right one. Even a panicked driver will move to the brake
pedal quickly. If they don't then they have no business being on the
highways in the first place.
That last sentence is the closest thing to a sensible comment
you've said here. Because even in the small city where I live,
there are several reports a year of people driving into a home
or business because they hit the wrong pedal... in a vehicle
with auto trans.



Jeff
--
If you can't learn to do something well, you can at least learn
to enjoy doing it poorly.
Daryl
2011-07-18 12:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Crowell
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are
automatic
(sorry about the big word) and not manual. MOST cars, if the
throttle
locks wide open will go into full acceleration. some cars have a lockout
to go to neutral from drive, you have to press a button on the shifter.
MOST cars have inexperienced drivers driving them. MOST Drives will go
into full on panick if this happens. Drivers will try and shut of the
ignition and the steering wheel will go into lock. Hello Panic.
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
I haven't tried it, but it sure seems like the sensible thing
to do would be to shift into neutral if you get a jam
accelerate (but then, I also would have mashed the start
button and held it down.... which apparently would have
worked).
Sensible for you and me. But when MOST drivers are involved,
sensible isn't in the equation. We spend billions a year to
protect these fools. But it's worth it, it also protects us from
them.
Post by Jeff Crowell
As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On an
electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two
throttles. One
is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I have seen too many
inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the twist grip to a more
comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze on the handlebars and get
creamed. I always suggest new riders to use the Thumb throttle because
if you do panic, your thumb automatically grips the grips which releases
the throttle.
Meh. I've seen as many people get into trouble with a thumb
throttle as a twist. If you panic and squeeze your hand, you
also tend to press with your thumb. I've seen it done.
And your thumb slips off the trigger. If you aren't panicked,
then you will still have your finger on the trigger. If you do,
then it's no longer panic but stupidity and you deserve to be
wasted by next available bus. Bikes are less prone to kill the
other guy because the other guy is driving what amounts to a tank
in comparison.
Post by Jeff Crowell
I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic (let me
say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic today) you only
have two pedals. One Accel and one Brake pedal. You hit the
wrong one,
move the to the right one. Even a panicked driver will move to the brake
pedal quickly. If they don't then they have no business being
on the
highways in the first place.
That last sentence is the closest thing to a sensible comment
you've said here. Because even in the small city where I live,
there are several reports a year of people driving into a home
or business because they hit the wrong pedal... in a vehicle
with auto trans.
I once got out of a ticket for lighting em up in my old tricked
out 65 GTO. I hit the wrong pedal. The Cop bought it. We both
know I hit the pedal I was aiming for along with the downshift.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Dan
2011-07-18 17:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 18:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.

Keith
Jeff Crowell
2011-07-18 19:38:52 UTC
Permalink
On 7/18/2011 12:21 PM,
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
On all the vehicles I own today (4), or can recall within the
last 20 years (3 more), from the 'Run' position on the key,
one click back stops the engine but does not lock the steering.
To remove the key, you must roll the key back one notch further,
which also locks the steering. On my Fords with manual
transmissions ('93 and '02 F-150s, '00 Ranger, '07 Mazda
B2300) you have to operate a separate latch to roll the key
back to the rear-most 'remove' position, making it harder
to panic yourself into a "can't steer" crash.

I certainly stipulate that does not mean all vehicles are so
equipped. But I'd give odds most modern ones are.



Jeff
--
Dying with an empty inbox is NOT the goal!
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 20:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Crowell
On 7/18/2011 12:21 PM,
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
On all the vehicles I own today (4), or can recall within the
last 20 years (3 more), from the 'Run' position on the key,
one click back stops the engine but does not lock the steering.
Yep - marked as AUX position which also leaves power to radio
and fan.


Keith
Dan
2011-07-19 02:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Jeff Crowell
On 7/18/2011 12:21 PM,
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
On all the vehicles I own today (4), or can recall within the
last 20 years (3 more), from the 'Run' position on the key,
one click back stops the engine but does not lock the steering.
Yep - marked as AUX position which also leaves power to radio
and fan.
Keith
I have driven cars where the steering locks if one goes to the off
position even without removing the key. Here in the colonies the
positions are aux, off, run, start.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Daryl
2011-07-18 20:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
Keith
You haven't driven many then.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 21:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
Keith
You haven't driven many then.
More than you at a guess.

Keith
Daryl
2011-07-18 21:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
Keith
You haven't driven many then.
More than you at a guess.
Keith
I live in the Western US. When I lived on a Ranch, I spent at
least 120 miles a day in a vehicle. One our Counties is as large
as England and Wales out here. The Ranch was larger than one of
your Counties. Going to town to shop was 90 miles one way. And
Colorado is isn't the largest US State by any stretch of the
imagination.

Chances are, you spent much less time behind the wheel than I
did. Your idea of commuting is considered right down the street
to us. When you see a commuter doing a 3 hour one way drive (I
did that when I worked on Marrow Point) then you should
understand that our driving in the west is much more than yours.
You just don't have the territory.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 22:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off
position. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
Keith
You haven't driven many then.
More than you at a guess.
Keith
I live in the Western US. When I lived on a Ranch, I spent at
least 120 miles a day in a vehicle. One our Counties is as large
as England and Wales out here. The Ranch was larger than one of
your Counties. Going to town to shop was 90 miles one way. And
Colorado is isn't the largest US State by any stretch of the
imagination.
Chances are, you spent much less time behind the wheel than I
did. Your idea of commuting is considered right down the street
to us. When you see a commuter doing a 3 hour one way drive (I
did that when I worked on Marrow Point) then you should
understand that our driving in the west is much more than yours.
You just don't have the territory.
And just how much of that time was spent in EUROPEAN cars :)
That is what we were discussing when all is said and dne.


Keith
Daryl
2011-07-18 23:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off
position. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
Keith
You haven't driven many then.
More than you at a guess.
Keith
I live in the Western US. When I lived on a Ranch, I spent at
least 120 miles a day in a vehicle. One our Counties is as large
as England and Wales out here. The Ranch was larger than one of
your Counties. Going to town to shop was 90 miles one way. And
Colorado is isn't the largest US State by any stretch of the
imagination.
Chances are, you spent much less time behind the wheel than I
did. Your idea of commuting is considered right down the street
to us. When you see a commuter doing a 3 hour one way drive (I
did that when I worked on Marrow Point) then you should
understand that our driving in the west is much more than yours.
You just don't have the territory.
And just how much of that time was spent in EUROPEAN cars :)
That is what we were discussing when all is said and dne.
stationed in Germany and 60 miles outside of England. The
deciding factor to drive less was the cost of Gas, not the
distance. I did take the train a few times in Germany. Loved
it. And I did use Military Transporation as much as possible.
But I also owned a few European Cars like a English Ford, Opel,
and Mercedes.

Seems I spent a few years in Europe. How many years have you
spent in the United States, specifically, the West.

You lose. Now, suck it up.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-19 07:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off
position. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
Keith
You haven't driven many then.
More than you at a guess.
Keith
I live in the Western US. When I lived on a Ranch, I spent at
least 120 miles a day in a vehicle. One our Counties is as large
as England and Wales out here. The Ranch was larger than one of
your Counties. Going to town to shop was 90 miles one way. And
Colorado is isn't the largest US State by any stretch of the
imagination.
Chances are, you spent much less time behind the wheel than I
did. Your idea of commuting is considered right down the street
to us. When you see a commuter doing a 3 hour one way drive (I
did that when I worked on Marrow Point) then you should
understand that our driving in the west is much more than yours.
You just don't have the territory.
And just how much of that time was spent in EUROPEAN cars :)
That is what we were discussing when all is said and dne.
stationed in Germany and 60 miles outside of England.
In the middle of the North Sea perhaps
Post by Daryl
The
deciding factor to drive less was the cost of Gas, not the
distance. I did take the train a few times in Germany. Loved
it. And I did use Military Transporation as much as possible.
But I also owned a few European Cars like a English Ford, Opel,
and Mercedes.
Seems I spent a few years in Europe. How many years have you
spent in the United States, specifically, the West.
We are discussing EUROPEAN cars - remember ?

But since you ask I spent several years in the USA split
mainly between Ohio and the Bay Area
Post by Daryl
You lose. Now, suck it up.
You sound more like John Tarver every day.

Keith
Paul F Austin
2011-07-19 07:49:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
You lose. Now, suck it up.
You sound more like John Tarver every day.
Keith
On the evidence, the Tarver-bot cloned multiple times but still infests
the area.

Paul
Dan
2011-07-19 02:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off
position. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
Keith
You haven't driven many then.
More than you at a guess.
Keith
I live in the Western US. When I lived on a Ranch, I spent at
least 120 miles a day in a vehicle. One our Counties is as large
as England and Wales out here. The Ranch was larger than one of
your Counties. Going to town to shop was 90 miles one way. And
Colorado is isn't the largest US State by any stretch of the
imagination.
Chances are, you spent much less time behind the wheel than I
did. Your idea of commuting is considered right down the street
to us. When you see a commuter doing a 3 hour one way drive (I
did that when I worked on Marrow Point) then you should
understand that our driving in the west is much more than yours.
You just don't have the territory.
And just how much of that time was spent in EUROPEAN cars :)
That is what we were discussing when all is said and dne.
Keith
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Dave Kearton
2011-07-19 03:45:39 UTC
Permalink
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a Texan's
stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to drive my
truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter responded "I once
had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well, <cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....


I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the world's
largest working cattle station.

Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km² (in real terms)


Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is way
denser than ours (big smiley deployed)


Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any Argentineans,
Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust the Chinese either.
--
Cheers

Dave Kearton
Daryl
2011-07-19 03:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Kearton
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5
hours to drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well, <cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to
the world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km² (in
real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't
trust the Chinese either.
Colorado is larger than Texas. That is, if you flattened it out :)
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
frank
2011-07-19 08:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Dave Kearton
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5
hours to drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well, <cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1 times the size of Texas and home to
the world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km (in
real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't
trust the Chinese either.
Colorado is larger than Texas. That is, if you flattened it out :)
--http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV.  Tons of Military shows and
programs.
We used to have a map in the dorm decades ago, 'Ski Texas' had
panhandle extended to Colorado and claimed the entire state.
Daryl
2011-07-19 09:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by frank
Post by Daryl
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5
hours to drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1 times the size of Texas and home to
the world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km (in
real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't
trust the Chinese either.
Colorado is larger than Texas. That is, if you flattened it out :)
--http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
We used to have a map in the dorm decades ago, 'Ski Texas' had
panhandle extended to Colorado and claimed the entire state.
I wonder who in their right mind did the panhandle area of Texas
and Oklahoma.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Dan
2011-07-19 06:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Kearton
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well, <cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km² (in real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
You have euno, are you absolutely sure you want to compare densities?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Dave Kearton
2011-07-19 07:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Post by Dave Kearton
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
You have euno, are you absolutely sure you want to compare densities?
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Hey, we ALSO have Jolly Green Giant (somewhere) and we're still less dense
....
--
Cheers

Dave Kearton
Daryl
2011-07-19 09:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Kearton
Post by Dan
Post by Dave Kearton
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
You have euno, are you absolutely sure you want to compare
densities?
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Hey, we ALSO have Jolly Green Giant (somewhere) and we're still
less dense ....
I could take that comment one of two ways you know :)
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-19 07:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Kearton
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well, <cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1œ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km² (in real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide (which I have)

Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)

Keith
Daryl
2011-07-19 09:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km² (in real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide (which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
Or drive from Ogden to Phoenix. Your point is?
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Richard
2011-07-19 17:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dave Kearton
  I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well, <cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km² (in real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide (which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
Daryl
2011-07-19 20:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km² (in real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide (which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger
bragging rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and
Canada in that order.

Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the
upper northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging
rights (if you can call those roads).

If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot of
days. It's almost 4000 miles.

From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty
deserts equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is
just under 1500 miles.

the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Peter Skelton
2011-07-19 20:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km² (in real terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide (which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and Canada in that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights (if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just under 1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are

Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia

In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China ahead of the USA.

By road network it's

USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada

I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
--
Peter
Daryl
2011-07-19 20:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs
to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide
(which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at
least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from
Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and Canada in
that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the
upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights
(if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot
of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just under 1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China ahead of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Peter Skelton
2011-07-20 03:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide
(which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at
least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and Canada in that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights
(if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just under 1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China ahead of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid he
thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning is found
only in American cars.
--
Peter
Daryl
2011-07-20 03:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven)
or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide
(which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger
bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and Canada in that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights (if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just under 1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for
these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China ahead of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me
reiterate my view on you.

Bite me.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Peter Skelton
2011-07-20 04:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and home to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group - wouldn't trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide
(which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger
bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and Canada in that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights (if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just under 1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China ahead of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me reiterate my
view on you.
Bite me.
Have you ever noticed that your true blockhead generally accuses the
other party of what he's feeling himself?

Go bite Fred, he likes it

Bye
--
Peter
Daryl
2011-07-20 15:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It
takes 5
hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and
home
to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group -
wouldn't
trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide
(which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger
bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and Canada in that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights (if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really
nasty
deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just
under
1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China
ahead
of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me
reiterate my
view on you.
Bite me.
Have you ever noticed that your true blockhead generally accuses
the other party of what he's feeling himself?
Go bite Fred, he likes it
Bye
You go bite Fred. And you can bite me as well.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Peter Skelton
2011-07-20 15:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It
takes 5
hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and
home
to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group -
wouldn't
trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide (which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and Canada in that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights (if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty
deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just
under
1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China
ahead
of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me
reiterate my
view on you.
Bite me.
Have you ever noticed that your true blockhead generally accuses
the other party of what he's feeling himself?
Go bite Fred, he likes it
Bye
You go bite Fred. And you can bite me as well.
If I bite you after I bite Fred, you will certainly die in agony.
--
Peter
Daryl
2011-07-20 17:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
On Jul 19, 2:42 am, "Keith
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being
bombarded
by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It
takes 5
hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and
home
to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group -
wouldn't
trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances
needs
to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide (which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from
Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and
Canada in
that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the
upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights (if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot
of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty
deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just
under
1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China
ahead
of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me
reiterate my
view on you.
Bite me.
Have you ever noticed that your true blockhead generally accuses
the other party of what he's feeling himself?
Go bite Fred, he likes it
Bye
You go bite Fred. And you can bite me as well.
If I bite you after I bite Fred, you will certainly die in agony.
It's Fred and I that I worry about. No telling what else you
have bitten in the past.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Jeffrey Hamilton
2011-07-21 17:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
On Jul 19, 2:42 am, "Keith
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being
bombarded
by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It
takes 5
hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1œ times the size of Texas and
home
to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group -
wouldn't
trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs
to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide (which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from
Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and
Canada in
that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the
upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights (if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot
of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty
deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just
under
1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China
ahead
of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me
reiterate my
view on you.
Bite me.
Have you ever noticed that your true blockhead generally accuses
the other party of what he's feeling himself?
Go bite Fred, he likes it
Bye
You go bite Fred. And you can bite me as well.
If I bite you after I bite Fred, you will certainly die in agony.
It's Fred and I that I worry about.
You'll be the only one, then. :)

cheers.....Jeff
Daryl
2011-07-21 17:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey Hamilton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
On Jul 19, 2:42 am, "Keith
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being
bombarded
by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It
takes 5
hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and
home
to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group -
wouldn't
trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs
to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide
(which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from
Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and
Canada in
that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the
upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights (if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot
of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty
deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just
under
1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China
ahead
of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me
reiterate my
view on you.
Bite me.
Have you ever noticed that your true blockhead generally accuses
the other party of what he's feeling himself?
Go bite Fred, he likes it
Bye
You go bite Fred. And you can bite me as well.
If I bite you after I bite Fred, you will certainly die in agony.
It's Fred and I that I worry about.
You'll be the only one, then. :)
cheers.....Jeff
Sorry, but I have only bite me per conversation and right now,
it's for Peter who likes to bite people. So you will just have
to wait your turn on this one.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Jeffrey Hamilton
2011-07-27 21:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Jeffrey Hamilton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
On Jul 19, 2:42 am, "Keith
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being
bombarded
by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It
takes 5
hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't
important".....
I live in a state that's 1œ times the size of Texas and
home
to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group -
wouldn't
trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs
to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide
(which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at
least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from
Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and
Canada in
that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the
upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights
(if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot
of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty
deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just
under
1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China
ahead
of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me
reiterate my
view on you.
Bite me.
Have you ever noticed that your true blockhead generally accuses
the other party of what he's feeling himself?
Go bite Fred, he likes it
Bye
You go bite Fred. And you can bite me as well.
If I bite you after I bite Fred, you will certainly die in agony.
It's Fred and I that I worry about.
You'll be the only one, then. :)
cheers.....Jeff
Sorry, but I have only bite me per conversation and right now,
it's for Peter who likes to bite people. So you will just have
Oh.... I wasn't in line, Daryl, I was laughing at _YOU_ and a possible
Fredfreaka response !

cheers.....Jeff
Daryl
2011-07-28 01:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey Hamilton
Post by Daryl
Post by Jeffrey Hamilton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Peter Skelton
Post by Daryl
Post by Peter Skelton
On Jul 19, 2:42 am, "Keith
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being
bombarded
by a
Texan's stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It
takes 5
hours to
drive my truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The
Vermonter
responded "I once had a truck that ran that bad too."
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Well,<cough> in the spirit of "size isn't
important".....
I live in a state that's 1½ times the size of Texas and
home
to the
world's largest working cattle station.
Anna Creek station is over 6 million acres - or 24,000km²
(in real
terms)
Texas still beats us on population density though, your
population is
way denser than ours (big smiley deployed)
Of course, I wouldn't have brought this up if there were any
Argentineans, Brazilians or Russians on the group -
wouldn't
trust
the Chinese either.
Yep any American who thinks they drive long distances needs
to try the
Eyre Highway across the Nullarbor (which I havent driven) or the
Stuart Highway from Darwin to Port Augusta and Adelaide
(which I have)
Overtaking a road train is definitely an experience but at
least you
guys drive on correct side of the road :)
Keith
:-)
Piffle- that's only 1700 miles. Try a drive (with kids) from
Houston
to Seattle- 600 more miles. :-)
There are only 3 other countries in the world with larger bragging
rights to square feet and that is Russia, China and
Canada in
that order.
Now, Canada drops out because there are very few roads in the
upper
northern part. China and Russia maintain the bragging rights
(if you can
call those roads).
If you drive from Miami to Seattle, you had better have a lot
of days.
It's almost 4000 miles.
From Keniwick Washinton to Pheonix is through some really nasty
deserts
equal to anything anywhere in the world. And that is just
under
1500 miles.
the difference between the rest of the world and the US for these
fantastic distances? The Interstate and Air Conditioning.
OFCS, the largest countries are
Russia
Canada
USA
China
Brazil
Australia
In that order. If you include claimed territory, put China
ahead
of the USA.
By road network it's
USA
China
India
Brazil
Japan
Canada
I had to look the latter list up, an activity I recommend to you.
Bite me.
I do believe we have a true idjit on our hands, a man so stupid
he thingks only the US has autobahns, and that air conditioning
is found only in American cars.
I can see that my comment hit a nerve. Good. And let me
reiterate my
view on you.
Bite me.
Have you ever noticed that your true blockhead generally accuses
the other party of what he's feeling himself?
Go bite Fred, he likes it
Bye
You go bite Fred. And you can bite me as well.
If I bite you after I bite Fred, you will certainly die in agony.
It's Fred and I that I worry about.
You'll be the only one, then. :)
cheers.....Jeff
Sorry, but I have only bite me per conversation and right now,
it's for Peter who likes to bite people. So you will just have
Oh.... I wasn't in line, Daryl, I was laughing at _YOU_ and a possible
Fredfreaka response !
cheers.....Jeff
Nice to know you have such a wonderful sense of humor. I feel a
dead baby joke coming on......
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Paul F Austin
2011-07-19 07:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off
position. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Must be an American thing. All the European cars I have driven
have only locked the steering when the key is removed although
some power steering setups got very heavy with the engine off.
Keith
You haven't driven many then.
More than you at a guess.
Keith
I live in the Western US. When I lived on a Ranch, I spent at
least 120 miles a day in a vehicle. One our Counties is as large
as England and Wales out here. The Ranch was larger than one of
your Counties. Going to town to shop was 90 miles one way. And
Colorado is isn't the largest US State by any stretch of the
imagination.
Chances are, you spent much less time behind the wheel than I
did. Your idea of commuting is considered right down the street
to us. When you see a commuter doing a 3 hour one way drive (I
did that when I worked on Marrow Point) then you should
understand that our driving in the west is much more than yours.
You just don't have the territory.
And just how much of that time was spent in EUROPEAN cars :)
That is what we were discussing when all is said and dne.
Keith
I am reminded of a Vermont rancher who was being bombarded by a Texan's
stories about his ranch. The Texan said "It takes 5 hours to drive my
truck around the perimeter of my ranch." The Vermonter responded "I once
had a truck that ran that bad too."
Texas is a different kind of place. My wife encountered an original land
description, when we lived there, that said approximately "start at the
hickory tree and ride in the direction of the rising sun for the time it
takes to roll and smoke three cigarettes..."

Paul
Daryl
2011-07-18 20:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Dan, he's an expert you know in all makes and models of cars. My
Ford can be shut off, the key still in the ignition and lock the
steering wheel. My Firebird must have a lever thrown to get it
to the lock position.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Jeff Crowell
2011-07-18 22:39:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Dan, he's an expert you know in all makes and models of cars. My Ford
can be shut off, the key still in the ignition and lock the steering
wheel. My Firebird must have a lever thrown to get it to the lock position.
Daryl, you made a categorical statement. I named several
vehicles in which your statement did not apply, or was at
least misleadingly worded--my cars' steering lock in the 'Off'
position as well. It's just that there's a key position
between 'Run' and 'Off.'

You also carefully did not mention the part where I stipulated
that my observations did to necessarily apply to all vehicles.



Jeff
--
There are ten types of people in this world: those that
understand binary, and those that don't.
Daryl
2011-07-18 23:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Dan
Post by Jeff Crowell
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
Some vehicle steering locks when the key is in the off position.
Dan, he's an expert you know in all makes and models of cars.
My Ford
can be shut off, the key still in the ignition and lock the
steering
wheel. My Firebird must have a lever thrown to get it to the
lock position.
Daryl, you made a categorical statement. I named several
vehicles in which your statement did not apply, or was at
least misleadingly worded--my cars' steering lock in the 'Off'
position as well. It's just that there's a key position
between 'Run' and 'Off.'
You also carefully did not mention the part where I stipulated
that my observations did to necessarily apply to all vehicles.
sorry, Jeff. I got you mixed up with Keith. Yes, many cars
cannot be entered into steering wheel lock without pressing a
lever. My Firebird is one of those. But my Ford Van can go one
past shutdown of power to locking the steering column with no lever.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
f***@hotmail.com
2012-05-31 19:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Crowell
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are automatic
(sorry about the big word) and not manual. MOST cars, if the throttle
locks wide open will go into full acceleration. some cars have a lockout
to go to neutral from drive, you have to press a button on the shifter.
MOST cars have inexperienced drivers driving them. MOST Drives will go
into full on panick if this happens. Drivers will try and shut of the
ignition and the steering wheel will go into lock. Hello Panic.
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine
and still steer. Two different positions on the key. Not
that difficult.
I have not used modern automobiles much but ...

... in the era of automobiles which steering column ignition keys, you
just turn the key back from 'run' which is position II to position I
which is 'electrical feed only'. I used to this when either running
out of gas and going downhill or when hunting for poachers along the
forest border and needing to let the auto glide down hill with no
lights on and no engine noise.

To restart, rotate the key back to 'run' and move it back into gear
and bring the clutch up.

The panicked or inexperienced might rotate the key all the way to the
steering lock position.

Not sure when steering column ignition locks came in but it would be
mid Sixties on both sides of the Atlantic

For kids too young to know of autos with steering column key ignition,
watch the opening minutes of 'Mad Max'. Get the undubbed Australian
version.

Automatic torque-converter transmission: The people who seem to 'press
the wrong pedal' seem to be old ladies and complete klutzes. Do not
stand behind or in front of old ladies who are attempting to park
automatic transmission automobiles.

On failure modes in stick shift:

A friend called and invited me out for a trip in a wire-wheels
four-on-the-floor English sports car with no top, which he had just
finished a bare-metal rebuild upon.

Great. We are howling along the road and find ourselves coming back
into town. We are going a little faster than I would have thought wise
and the rhythm of my friend's driving has become a bit erratic. The
engine keeps banging off the (aftermarket) rev limiter and he is
going like Fred Astaire on all those pedals. His actions are rapid and
studied but not so frantic that he has no time to dab the ash off his
cigarette.

Eventually he mutters something about the throttle being stuck but not
before I had already arrived at this conclusion myself. He was
bleeding off the speed with the brakes, pounding on the throttle pedal
to make it come unstuck and shifting to try and keep the engines revs
from pegging. After what felt like hours but was only seconds the
throttle came unstuck and we pulled over to attempt to effect a repair
by staring at the offending component and muttering curses.


I borrowed a friends powerful 4x4 once. Started up and had to
three-point-turn to get out of the yard. Moved forward and stopped.
Clutch down, tried to pull lever out of 1st. The clutch does not seem
to be disengaging. I press it all the way to the floor, hard. The
engine is at idle and still torqueing, every time my foot moves on the
brake we lurch forward a little toward the wall. I am in the middle of
a 'does not compute' loop. It's like something out of "Damien Omen II'
or whatever.

Gear lever still will not budge because of the torque coming through
the drivetrain. Even with panic-level force being applied. I am still
in 'does not compute' loop and briefly imagine what it was going to be
like to be stuck here for half an hour before some one finds me.

Then I just turned the ignition off.

The fluid level in the hydraulic clutch was low. As was just about
every other fluid level in the vehicle.


-funkraum
Peter Stickney
2012-06-09 18:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just stick
the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are automatic
(sorry about the big word) and not manual. MOST cars, if the throttle
locks wide open will go into full acceleration. some cars have a
lockout to go to neutral from drive, you have to press a button on the
shifter. MOST cars have inexperienced drivers driving them. MOST
Drives will go into full on panick if this happens. Drivers will try
and shut of the ignition and the steering wheel will go into lock.
Hello Panic.
I have yet to see a car where you cannot shut down the engine and still
steer. Two different positions on the key. Not that difficult.
I have not used modern automobiles much but ...
... in the era of automobiles which steering column ignition keys, you
just turn the key back from 'run' which is position II to position I
which is 'electrical feed only'. I used to this when either running out
of gas and going downhill or when hunting for poachers along the forest
border and needing to let the auto glide down hill with no lights on and
no engine noise.
To restart, rotate the key back to 'run' and move it back into gear and
bring the clutch up.
The panicked or inexperienced might rotate the key all the way to the
steering lock position.
Not sure when steering column ignition locks came in but it would be mid
Sixties on both sides of the Atlantic
I don't know about widespread use, but I had a pair of 1936 Fords with
steering locks - to whit, a chrome-steel bolt that locked the steering wheel
in place when the key was turned to the "withdraw key" position.
(Note also that in those beasts, the key didn't activate the starter. The
starter was kicked off by a switch on the floor by the clutch pedal -
to start, you mashed the clutch to the floor and hit the starter switch
with your heel. Much more reliable than today's lockout switches and
solenoids.)
Post by f***@hotmail.com
For kids too young to know of autos with steering column key ignition,
watch the opening minutes of 'Mad Max'. Get the undubbed Australian
version.
Automatic torque-converter transmission: The people who seem to 'press
the wrong pedal' seem to be old ladies and complete klutzes. Do not
stand behind or in front of old ladies who are attempting to park
automatic transmission automobiles.
A friend called and invited me out for a trip in a wire-wheels
four-on-the-floor English sports car with no top, which he had just
finished a bare-metal rebuild upon.
Great. We are howling along the road and find ourselves coming back into
town. We are going a little faster than I would have thought wise and
the rhythm of my friend's driving has become a bit erratic. The engine
keeps banging off the (aftermarket) rev limiter and he is going like
Fred Astaire on all those pedals. His actions are rapid and studied but
not so frantic that he has no time to dab the ash off his cigarette.
Eventually he mutters something about the throttle being stuck but not
before I had already arrived at this conclusion myself. He was bleeding
off the speed with the brakes, pounding on the throttle pedal to make it
come unstuck and shifting to try and keep the engines revs from pegging.
After what felt like hours but was only seconds the throttle came
unstuck and we pulled over to attempt to effect a repair by staring at
the offending component and muttering curses.
Had a throttle stick open on me once. Once.
Double extra-strong return springs cleared that up.
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I borrowed a friends powerful 4x4 once. Started up and had to
three-point-turn to get out of the yard. Moved forward and stopped.
Clutch down, tried to pull lever out of 1st. The clutch does not seem to
be disengaging. I press it all the way to the floor, hard. The engine is
at idle and still torqueing, every time my foot moves on the brake we
lurch forward a little toward the wall. I am in the middle of a 'does
not compute' loop. It's like something out of "Damien Omen II' or
whatever.
Gear lever still will not budge because of the torque coming through the
drivetrain. Even with panic-level force being applied. I am still in
'does not compute' loop and briefly imagine what it was going to be like
to be stuck here for half an hour before some one finds me.
Then I just turned the ignition off.
The fluid level in the hydraulic clutch was low. As was just about every
other fluid level in the vehicle.
If it's been sitting in the hangar for more than overnight, an extra-thorough
preflight is always a good idea.
--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 12:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Alternatively of course you could just use manual transmission
which is my preferred solution although as it happens my
(Volkswagen Audi Group) car does have this mode built in along
ESC, traction control and ABS brakes.
You could, yes. But that is just another way of trying to cover
up a flaw.
Actually it avoids it altogether, there is no real possibility of a
runaway with stick shift.
Yes, you are right. With a non panicked experienced driver. Not
a whole lot of those running around these days. It's a flaw.
Just admit it and move on. I have a whole lot more experience in
electric vehicles than you do and it shows.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
The Flaw is software. Chrysler made this claim about
toyota from the very first since they had been using the same
throttles and control units before Toyota had. Toyota copied the
hardware but blew the software end of it.
Not according to the NHSA report, they are quite clear the issue
in most cases was drivers hitting the wrong pedal with some instances
of mechanical sticking of the throttle.
According to the NHSA, these things might be true. But the
prevent was never put in like GM, and Ford. Not to mention
Mercedes, Volkwagon, and tons of others.
Trouble is as of today they are NOT fitted to most cars
produced by GM and Ford. According to the NHSA Brake
Override is fitted to less than 50% of the cars sold in the USA
Post by Daryl
Tells me to wait until
the next problem with a toyota happens and to not be surprised.
But I can bet the driver it happens to will certainly be surprised.
Yet, the prevent has been in electric vehicles for the last 10
years. In fact, most electric vehicles have something called
Regen Braking. Just by touching the brake, you get enough
braking from the motor to keep you from using your brakes except
for a complete stop of a panic stop. And it doesn't matter where
your throttle is set at since it is disengaged. Guess us
Electric people are smarter than you gas folks. Well all except
Chrysler who saw the lack of a brake throttle override as a
problem and included it.
Note that they almost certainly acquired that from Daimler when
they were tied up with them. Its a standard fit on more than 80%
of German cars.
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are
automatic (sorry about the big word) and not manual.
Only in the context of the USA. Most cars in Europe and Asia
are manual shift
Post by Daryl
MOST cars,
if the throttle locks wide open will go into full acceleration.
Indeed
Post by Daryl
some cars have a lockout to go to neutral from drive, you have to
press a button on the shifter.
Something anyone who drives them is aware of.
Post by Daryl
MOST cars have inexperienced
drivers driving them. MOST Drives will go into full on panick if
this happens. Drivers will try and shut of the ignition and the
steering wheel will go into lock. Hello Panic.
All the cars I have driven will only lock if you remove the
key from the ignition.
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Note that Brake Overide is fitted to less than 50% of cars sold in
the USA Most Ford and GM models don't have it either. Note further
that in 2010 Chrysler had to issue a recall on Dodge and Jeep models
to fix sticking throttles.
Yes, because they used the same hardware that Toyota used.
Mostly, it was check and release. Those same cars had the Brake
Lockout on the system so it wasn't nearly as dangerous. It
wasn't Chrysler that caused the recall, it was Toyota. You will
not that not one single Chrysler, GM or Ford is reported to the
throttle being lock full on during the time period we are talking
about.
As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On
an electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two
throttles. One is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I
have seen too many inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the
twist grip to a more comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze
on the handlebars and get creamed. I always suggest new riders
to use the Thumb throttle because if you do panic, your thumb
automatically grips the grips which releases the throttle. Panic
does happen. All riders aren't 1 million mile riders.
All the bikes I owned were cable operated twist grip
Post by Daryl
Experienced MC riders don't buy electric. But, most of all, I
explain to them about the brake throttle lockout. Even in panic
there is a good chance they are going to go for at least the left
hand brake.
I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic
(let me say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic
Once again - only in the USA
Post by Daryl
today) you only have two pedals. One Accel and one Brake pedal.
You hit the wrong one, move the to the right one.
Unless you have hit something in the interim. I was a witness to a
fatal accident when someone waiting to turn at a cross roads
hit the wrong pedal and lurched into the path of a truck.It was
not pretty.
Post by Daryl
Even a
panicked driver will move to the brake pedal quickly. If they
don't then they have no business being on the highways in the
first place.
There we agree. It does happen however.

Keith
Daryl
2011-07-18 13:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Alternatively of course you could just use manual transmission
which is my preferred solution although as it happens my
(Volkswagen Audi Group) car does have this mode built in along
ESC, traction control and ABS brakes.
You could, yes. But that is just another way of trying to cover
up a flaw.
Actually it avoids it altogether, there is no real possibility of a
runaway with stick shift.
Yes, you are right. With a non panicked experienced driver. Not
a whole lot of those running around these days. It's a flaw.
Just admit it and move on. I have a whole lot more experience in
electric vehicles than you do and it shows.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
The Flaw is software. Chrysler made this claim about
toyota from the very first since they had been using the same
throttles and control units before Toyota had. Toyota copied the
hardware but blew the software end of it.
Not according to the NHSA report, they are quite clear the issue
in most cases was drivers hitting the wrong pedal with some instances
of mechanical sticking of the throttle.
According to the NHSA, these things might be true. But the
prevent was never put in like GM, and Ford. Not to mention
Mercedes, Volkwagon, and tons of others.
Trouble is as of today they are NOT fitted to most cars
produced by GM and Ford. According to the NHSA Brake
Override is fitted to less than 50% of the cars sold in the USA
You keep repeating that like it's a good reason. The fact that
it's not present, you should be condemning those that don't have
it.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Tells me to wait until
the next problem with a toyota happens and to not be surprised.
But I can bet the driver it happens to will certainly be surprised.
Yet, the prevent has been in electric vehicles for the last 10
years. In fact, most electric vehicles have something called
Regen Braking. Just by touching the brake, you get enough
braking from the motor to keep you from using your brakes except
for a complete stop of a panic stop. And it doesn't matter where
your throttle is set at since it is disengaged. Guess us
Electric people are smarter than you gas folks. Well all except
Chrysler who saw the lack of a brake throttle override as a
problem and included it.
Note that they almost certainly acquired that from Daimler when
they were tied up with them. Its a standard fit on more than 80%
of German cars.
They might have. Where they got it from is of no consequence.
It's the fact they are using it and others aren't.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are
automatic (sorry about the big word) and not manual.
Only in the context of the USA. Most cars in Europe and Asia
are manual shift
The NHTA isn't concerned over the safety of a car in China or
Malayasia.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
MOST cars,
if the throttle locks wide open will go into full acceleration.
Indeed
Post by Daryl
some cars have a lockout to go to neutral from drive, you have to
press a button on the shifter.
Something anyone who drives them is aware of.
Again, you are thinking all drivers are professionals. Most
don't have a clue.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
MOST cars have inexperienced
drivers driving them. MOST Drives will go into full on panick if
this happens. Drivers will try and shut of the ignition and the
steering wheel will go into lock. Hello Panic.
All the cars I have driven will only lock if you remove the
key from the ignition.
Not on all models.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Note that Brake Overide is fitted to less than 50% of cars sold in
the USA Most Ford and GM models don't have it either. Note further
that in 2010 Chrysler had to issue a recall on Dodge and Jeep models
to fix sticking throttles.
Yes, because they used the same hardware that Toyota used.
Mostly, it was check and release. Those same cars had the Brake
Lockout on the system so it wasn't nearly as dangerous. It
wasn't Chrysler that caused the recall, it was Toyota. You will
not that not one single Chrysler, GM or Ford is reported to the
throttle being lock full on during the time period we are talking
about.
As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On
an electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two
throttles. One is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I
have seen too many inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the
twist grip to a more comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze
on the handlebars and get creamed. I always suggest new riders
to use the Thumb throttle because if you do panic, your thumb
automatically grips the grips which releases the throttle. Panic
does happen. All riders aren't 1 million mile riders.
All the bikes I owned were cable operated twist grip
Electric Bike Throttles.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Experienced MC riders don't buy electric. But, most of all, I
explain to them about the brake throttle lockout. Even in panic
there is a good chance they are going to go for at least the left
hand brake.
I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic
(let me say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic
Once again - only in the USA
You used the NHTA and NASA as an example. Therefore, you are
talking about US Cars. You can't have it both ways.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
today) you only have two pedals. One Accel and one Brake pedal.
You hit the wrong one, move the to the right one.
Unless you have hit something in the interim. I was a witness to a
fatal accident when someone waiting to turn at a cross roads
hit the wrong pedal and lurched into the path of a truck.It was
not pretty.
Survival of the fittest. Obviously, the Truck was the fittest.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Even a
panicked driver will move to the brake pedal quickly. If they
don't then they have no business being on the highways in the
first place.
There we agree. It does happen however.
Keith
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 17:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Alternatively of course you could just use manual transmission
which is my preferred solution although as it happens my
(Volkswagen Audi Group) car does have this mode built in along
ESC, traction control and ABS brakes.
You could, yes. But that is just another way of trying to cover
up a flaw.
Actually it avoids it altogether, there is no real possibility of a
runaway with stick shift.
Yes, you are right. With a non panicked experienced driver. Not
a whole lot of those running around these days. It's a flaw.
Just admit it and move on. I have a whole lot more experience in
electric vehicles than you do and it shows.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
The Flaw is software. Chrysler made this claim about
toyota from the very first since they had been using the same
throttles and control units before Toyota had. Toyota copied the
hardware but blew the software end of it.
Not according to the NHSA report, they are quite clear the issue
in most cases was drivers hitting the wrong pedal with some
instances of mechanical sticking of the throttle.
According to the NHSA, these things might be true. But the
prevent was never put in like GM, and Ford. Not to mention
Mercedes, Volkwagon, and tons of others.
Trouble is as of today they are NOT fitted to most cars
produced by GM and Ford. According to the NHSA Brake
Override is fitted to less than 50% of the cars sold in the USA
You keep repeating that like it's a good reason. The fact that
it's not present, you should be condemning those that don't have
it.
I repeat it to make the point that its not only Toyota that
has not fitted it. Honda, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Subaru and Mazda
don't fit it either. If you really think its essential I suggest you
write you congress critter and suggest it be made mandatory.

As I already mentioned the car I drive DOES have it though it
wasn't a factor in my choice. The way it works is interesting.

If you're on the brakes first and then hit the accelerator the
accelerator pedal still responds but if you hit the accelerator
first then the brakes the override kicks in and the throttle closes.

This means you can still use techniques like heel and toe to
smoothly match gears and accelerate out of a corner with the
turbo giving a high boost.

This is with a manual shift, I havent tried it with a conventional auto
or a DSG box.
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Tells me to wait until
the next problem with a toyota happens and to not be surprised.
But I can bet the driver it happens to will certainly be surprised.
Yet, the prevent has been in electric vehicles for the last 10
years. In fact, most electric vehicles have something called
Regen Braking. Just by touching the brake, you get enough
braking from the motor to keep you from using your brakes except
for a complete stop of a panic stop. And it doesn't matter where
your throttle is set at since it is disengaged. Guess us
Electric people are smarter than you gas folks. Well all except
Chrysler who saw the lack of a brake throttle override as a
problem and included it.
Note that they almost certainly acquired that from Daimler when
they were tied up with them. Its a standard fit on more than 80%
of German cars.
They might have. Where they got it from is of no consequence.
It's the fact they are using it and others aren't.
Actually others are using it, the reason German cars have it is that
it is being phased in as a mandatory requirement in most EU countries
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are
automatic (sorry about the big word) and not manual.
Only in the context of the USA. Most cars in Europe and Asia
are manual shift
The NHTA isn't concerned over the safety of a car in China or
Malayasia.
Many people who read and post to this newsgroup do so
from Europe where 80% of cars have manual transmissions.
Moreover the Toyota recall extended worldwide.
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
MOST cars,
if the throttle locks wide open will go into full acceleration.
Indeed
Post by Daryl
some cars have a lockout to go to neutral from drive, you have to
press a button on the shifter.
Something anyone who drives them is aware of.
Again, you are thinking all drivers are professionals. Most
don't have a clue.
Well given that ANY driver who has an auto has occasionally
to shift into neutral I suspect they know :)
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
MOST cars have inexperienced
drivers driving them. MOST Drives will go into full on panick if
this happens. Drivers will try and shut of the ignition and the
steering wheel will go into lock. Hello Panic.
All the cars I have driven will only lock if you remove the
key from the ignition.
Not on all models.
How about Toyota's, the last Camry I rented in Ohio was sure set
up like that.
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Note that Brake Overide is fitted to less than 50% of cars sold in
the USA Most Ford and GM models don't have it either. Note further
that in 2010 Chrysler had to issue a recall on Dodge and Jeep
models to fix sticking throttles.
Yes, because they used the same hardware that Toyota used.
Mostly, it was check and release. Those same cars had the Brake
Lockout on the system so it wasn't nearly as dangerous. It
wasn't Chrysler that caused the recall, it was Toyota. You will
not that not one single Chrysler, GM or Ford is reported to the
throttle being lock full on during the time period we are talking
about.
As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On
an electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two
throttles. One is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I
have seen too many inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the
twist grip to a more comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze
on the handlebars and get creamed. I always suggest new riders
to use the Thumb throttle because if you do panic, your thumb
automatically grips the grips which releases the throttle. Panic
does happen. All riders aren't 1 million mile riders.
All the bikes I owned were cable operated twist grip
Electric Bike Throttles.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Experienced MC riders don't buy electric. But, most of all, I
explain to them about the brake throttle lockout. Even in panic
there is a good chance they are going to go for at least the left
hand brake.
I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic
(let me say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic
Once again - only in the USA
You used the NHTA and NASA as an example. Therefore, you are
talking about US Cars. You can't have it both ways.
Of course I can.

Keith
Daryl
2011-07-18 21:08:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Alternatively of course you could just use manual transmission
which is my preferred solution although as it happens my
(Volkswagen Audi Group) car does have this mode built in along
ESC, traction control and ABS brakes.
You could, yes. But that is just another way of trying to cover
up a flaw.
Actually it avoids it altogether, there is no real possibility of a
runaway with stick shift.
Yes, you are right. With a non panicked experienced driver. Not
a whole lot of those running around these days. It's a flaw.
Just admit it and move on. I have a whole lot more experience in
electric vehicles than you do and it shows.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
The Flaw is software. Chrysler made this claim about
toyota from the very first since they had been using the same
throttles and control units before Toyota had. Toyota copied the
hardware but blew the software end of it.
Not according to the NHSA report, they are quite clear the issue
in most cases was drivers hitting the wrong pedal with some
instances of mechanical sticking of the throttle.
According to the NHSA, these things might be true. But the
prevent was never put in like GM, and Ford. Not to mention
Mercedes, Volkwagon, and tons of others.
Trouble is as of today they are NOT fitted to most cars
produced by GM and Ford. According to the NHSA Brake
Override is fitted to less than 50% of the cars sold in the USA
You keep repeating that like it's a good reason. The fact that
it's not present, you should be condemning those that don't have
it.
I repeat it to make the point that its not only Toyota that
has not fitted it. Honda, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Subaru and Mazda
don't fit it either. If you really think its essential I suggest you
write you congress critter and suggest it be made mandatory.
It might be very soon. AFter the fiasco with Toyota and Toyota
doing exactly what you are doing and saying, "It's not our fault".
Post by Keith Willshaw
As I already mentioned the car I drive DOES have it though it
wasn't a factor in my choice. The way it works is interesting.
If you're on the brakes first and then hit the accelerator the
accelerator pedal still responds but if you hit the accelerator
first then the brakes the override kicks in and the throttle closes.
This means you can still use techniques like heel and toe to
smoothly match gears and accelerate out of a corner with the
turbo giving a high boost.
This is with a manual shift, I havent tried it with a conventional auto
or a DSG box.
You drive a Spanish Veedub.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Tells me to wait until
the next problem with a toyota happens and to not be surprised.
But I can bet the driver it happens to will certainly be surprised.
Yet, the prevent has been in electric vehicles for the last 10
years. In fact, most electric vehicles have something called
Regen Braking. Just by touching the brake, you get enough
braking from the motor to keep you from using your brakes except
for a complete stop of a panic stop. And it doesn't matter where
your throttle is set at since it is disengaged. Guess us
Electric people are smarter than you gas folks. Well all except
Chrysler who saw the lack of a brake throttle override as a
problem and included it.
Note that they almost certainly acquired that from Daimler when
they were tied up with them. Its a standard fit on more than 80%
of German cars.
They might have. Where they got it from is of no consequence.
It's the fact they are using it and others aren't.
Actually others are using it, the reason German cars have it is that
it is being phased in as a mandatory requirement in most EU countries
Yah, look for the US to do the same thing.

But, think of this, the GMs and Fords didn't have the runaway
like the Toys did. Wonder why? Could it be that they didn't use
the hardware and had better software that Toy used?
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
The big design problem with the US models seems to have been the
keyless ignition system, normally with a runaway you can just
stick the thing in neutral and turn the engine off.
I will type slowly and use small words. MOST cars today are
automatic (sorry about the big word) and not manual.
Only in the context of the USA. Most cars in Europe and Asia
are manual shift
The NHTA isn't concerned over the safety of a car in China or
Malayasia.
Many people who read and post to this newsgroup do so
from Europe where 80% of cars have manual transmissions.
Moreover the Toyota recall extended worldwide.
This is because it was a worldwide problem. The US was just the
first to actually notice it after a few traffic deaths and more
than a few really scared sh**less drivers. In the US, it only
becomes mandatory if you don't do it as a manufacturer. Congress
had to pass a bill to get Ford to dump their Vacuum Window
Wipers. The brake throttle override may not have to become a
law. GM and Ford are tooling up for it and Toyota had better
tool up otherwise there is going to be one hell of a lot more bad
publicity if they don't AND it becomes a law.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
MOST cars,
if the throttle locks wide open will go into full acceleration.
Indeed
Post by Daryl
some cars have a lockout to go to neutral from drive, you have to
press a button on the shifter.
Something anyone who drives them is aware of.
Again, you are thinking all drivers are professionals. Most
don't have a clue.
Well given that ANY driver who has an auto has occasionally
to shift into neutral I suspect they know :)
Yah, I thought I was Dick Landy ion the 60s too.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
MOST cars have inexperienced
drivers driving them. MOST Drives will go into full on panick if
this happens. Drivers will try and shut of the ignition and the
steering wheel will go into lock. Hello Panic.
All the cars I have driven will only lock if you remove the
key from the ignition.
Not on all models.
How about Toyota's, the last Camry I rented in Ohio was sure set
up like that.
You don't get out much.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Post by Keith Willshaw
Note that Brake Overide is fitted to less than 50% of cars sold in
the USA Most Ford and GM models don't have it either. Note further
that in 2010 Chrysler had to issue a recall on Dodge and Jeep
models to fix sticking throttles.
Yes, because they used the same hardware that Toyota used.
Mostly, it was check and release. Those same cars had the Brake
Lockout on the system so it wasn't nearly as dangerous. It
wasn't Chrysler that caused the recall, it was Toyota. You will
not that not one single Chrysler, GM or Ford is reported to the
throttle being lock full on during the time period we are talking
about.
As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On
an electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two
throttles. One is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I
have seen too many inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the
twist grip to a more comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze
on the handlebars and get creamed. I always suggest new riders
to use the Thumb throttle because if you do panic, your thumb
automatically grips the grips which releases the throttle. Panic
does happen. All riders aren't 1 million mile riders.
All the bikes I owned were cable operated twist grip
Electric Bike Throttles.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
Experienced MC riders don't buy electric. But, most of all, I
explain to them about the brake throttle lockout. Even in panic
there is a good chance they are going to go for at least the left
hand brake.
I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic
(let me say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic
Once again - only in the USA
You used the NHTA and NASA as an example. Therefore, you are
talking about US Cars. You can't have it both ways.
Of course I can.
You notice from some of the other's posts, you lost this one.
And you need to get out more.
--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.
Steve Hix
2011-07-18 17:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On
an electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two
throttles. One is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I
have seen too many inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the
twist grip to a more comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze
on the handlebars and get creamed. I always suggest new riders
to use the Thumb throttle because if you do panic, your thumb
automatically grips the grips which releases the throttle. Panic
does happen. All riders aren't 1 million mile riders.
All the bikes I owned were cable operated twist grip
Guess I've been off motorcycles for too long, I've never operated one with a
thumb throttle. Or seen one, for that matter. Being used to a twist throttle got
me in trouble once, though.

The neighbor's three teen boys showed up one day with a quad with roll cage of
some brand, and offered to let me try it. Pointed out a couple of stubby
brake/clutch looking levers, one's a brake, one's the throttle, it's got an
automatic transmission.

Which explained the thing creeping forward as it was idling while I tried to
climb in. So I grabbed the "clutch lever" while I was half in. And it took off
with me trying to keep up and jump in.

It worked OK once we'd got it stopped and I got in and sat down, but the initial
meeting was startling and stupidifying in about equal measures.
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic
(let me say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic
Once again - only in the USA
Which is one of my wife's rare hot buttons. She figures automatics are for
people who can't manage a real transmission. She knows it's not a completely
rational viewpoint, but she'll mutter darkly on those rare occasions if we go
looking for a new-ish car, what with manuals being sort of scarce of late.
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 18:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hix
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
As for is a brake lockout essential? Try this on for size. On
an electric Bike or Motorcycle, you have your choice of two
throttles. One is twist grip and the other is thumb press. I
have seen too many inexperienced riders cock their hand, pull the
twist grip to a more comfortable position, get in trouble, freeze
on the handlebars and get creamed. I always suggest new riders
to use the Thumb throttle because if you do panic, your thumb
automatically grips the grips which releases the throttle. Panic
does happen. All riders aren't 1 million mile riders.
All the bikes I owned were cable operated twist grip
Guess I've been off motorcycles for too long, I've never operated one
with a thumb throttle. Or seen one, for that matter. Being used to a
twist throttle got me in trouble once, though.
The neighbor's three teen boys showed up one day with a quad with
roll cage of some brand, and offered to let me try it. Pointed out a
couple of stubby brake/clutch looking levers, one's a brake, one's
the throttle, it's got an automatic transmission.
Which explained the thing creeping forward as it was idling while I
tried to climb in. So I grabbed the "clutch lever" while I was half
in. And it took off with me trying to keep up and jump in.
It worked OK once we'd got it stopped and I got in and sat down, but
the initial meeting was startling and stupidifying in about equal
measures.
The worst problem I know of anyone getting into was told to me
by a pal of mine when I went to visit him in hospital where he
was in traction with a broken leg.

He had an old Triumph Bonneville with twist grip throttle and
manual choke operate by a lever mounted on the handlebar.

He was out on the North Yorkshire moors when his throttle cable broke.
The bit left wasnt long enough to fix back to the the twist group but
would reach the air lever, To get him home he rigged this up
and all went well for a quarter hour with him carefully using the
air lever for throttle control. Now feeling comfortable he went in to a
bend a little too fast and by long reflex closed the twist group instead
of the air lever ....

In the UK those of us riding bikes had a leaning issue when the
Japanese bikes arrived as they had the brake amd gear pedals on the
opposite sides to the British bikes.
Post by Steve Hix
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Daryl
I do love your, "Hit the wrong pedal" routine. On an automatic
(let me say this just one more time; MOST cars are automatic
Once again - only in the USA
Which is one of my wife's rare hot buttons. She figures automatics
are for people who can't manage a real transmission. She knows it's
not a completely rational viewpoint, but she'll mutter darkly on
those rare occasions if we go looking for a new-ish car, what with
manuals being sort of scarce of late.
Cant say I like driving a slush box myself but the new DSG boxes
with paddle shift get good write ups.

Keith
Andrew Chaplin
2011-07-18 20:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Steve Hix
Which is one of my wife's rare hot buttons. She figures automatics
are for people who can't manage a real transmission. She knows it's
not a completely rational viewpoint, but she'll mutter darkly on
those rare occasions if we go looking for a new-ish car, what with
manuals being sort of scarce of late.
Cant say I like driving a slush box myself but the new DSG boxes
with paddle shift get good write ups.
I have always maintained that I would not buy a vehicle with an automatic
transmission as long as they were more complex, more expensive, more
difficult to maintain, more difficult to operate in ice and snow and less
fuel efficient. It appears that vehicles with autos that can compete with
manuals in those fields are now on the horizon. Unforunately, I think
that my 2009 manual Ford Escape (for which I had to hunt) is likely to be
my last vehicle as, by the time it need replacing, I should probably be
taking myself off the raod for the benefit of all concerned--unless I win
a lottery, in which case I'll be asking "Where are the keys to the Land
Rover?"
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-18 20:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Chaplin
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Steve Hix
Which is one of my wife's rare hot buttons. She figures automatics
are for people who can't manage a real transmission. She knows it's
not a completely rational viewpoint, but she'll mutter darkly on
those rare occasions if we go looking for a new-ish car, what with
manuals being sort of scarce of late.
Cant say I like driving a slush box myself but the new DSG boxes
with paddle shift get good write ups.
I have always maintained that I would not buy a vehicle with an
automatic transmission as long as they were more complex, more
expensive, more difficult to maintain, more difficult to operate in
ice and snow and less fuel efficient. It appears that vehicles with
autos that can compete with manuals in those fields are now on the
horizon. Unforunately, I think that my 2009 manual Ford Escape (for
which I had to hunt) is likely to be my last vehicle as, by the time
it need replacing, I should probably be taking myself off the raod
for the benefit of all concerned--unless I win a lottery, in which
case I'll be asking "Where are the keys to the Land Rover?"
Around these parts (East Anglia) the average age of a LandRover
seems to be about 20 years and you can pick a decent one up for
a few thousand dollars. Of course thats what is now called the Defender
not a Discovery or RangeRover.

A 1980's diesel Landie is not only cheap and robust but
it will top out at 60 mph with the wind behind it so it may
make a decent geriatricMobile for me in a few years :)

In the meantime I'll stick to my manual Seat Altea Tdi
( Spanish built VW Golf Plus). If nothing else an average
of 50+ mpg is just what the doctor ordered with fuel prices
around $7 per gallon.

Keith
Andrew Chaplin
2011-07-18 21:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Around these parts (East Anglia) the average age of a LandRover
seems to be about 20 years and you can pick a decent one up for
a few thousand dollars. Of course thats what is now called the Defender
not a Discovery or RangeRover.
A 1980's diesel Landie is not only cheap and robust but
it will top out at 60 mph with the wind behind it so it may
make a decent geriatricMobile for me in a few years :)
Here, a Landie, other than the Discovery, isn't legal until it qualifies as
an antique vehicle. :(
Post by Keith Willshaw
In the meantime I'll stick to my manual Seat Altea Tdi
( Spanish built VW Golf Plus). If nothing else an average
of 50+ mpg is just what the doctor ordered with fuel prices
around $7 per gallon.
I don't know why you wouldn't, they're fun to drive, if expensive to
maintain by the book.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Alistair Gunn
2011-07-19 16:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
A 1980's diesel Landie is not only cheap and robust but
it will top out at 60 mph with the wind behind it so it may
make a decent geriatricMobile for me in a few years :)
They'll do 75-80mph if you have a long enough / steep enough hill! :-)
Of course, the noise level at that point makes conversations completely
impossible!

As it happens mine didn't have a steering lock either. 4 positions on
the key, off-on-glow-start.
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
vaughn
2011-07-18 20:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hix
looking for a new-ish car, what with manuals being sort of scarce of late.
Manuals are a fast disappearing breed. They may not be available at all for
some models, and only available for a premium on others. When we bought our
Accord, we insisted on a manual. The dealer finally found us one, but he wanted
to make damn sure that we didn't change our mind then leave him stuck with it!

Vaughn
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-17 10:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Keith Willshaw
news:64717566-faea-
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the
crew was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying,
but rather falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did
understand what was happening, why were they unable to take the
required action to make the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan
crash at Buffalo, neither member of that crew had ever
experienced a stick shaker/pusher combination as the aircraft
stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a stall recovery from
that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at
the pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault.
The pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably
wouldn't have in this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that
fact that there was a big design fault in the computer software
that controls the plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
No. The sofware went beserk when it was confronted with illegal or
erroneous readings from the airspeed pitot tubes. The pilots were
unable to compensate because the software didn't detect the erroneous
sensor input and gave no indications thereof, instead it kept trying
to fly the plane. The pilots couldn't have known that the computers
were getting erroneous input and may not have been able to shut off
automatic flight control systems that were flying the plane.
Pilots always need to be able to shut down automatic control systems
and fly the plane 'manually' just in cases like these. And computers
should always be able to detect when they are getting erroneous
sensor input and warn the pilots when they do. If a sensor is
defective then the flight model programmed into the computers
doesn't work anymore and could easily make things worse, like it did
in this case.
A lot of supposition there!
Most of it wrong !


The article at the link below indicates clearly that when it got conflicting
IAS values the computer disconnected the autopilot and that the
pilots were manually flying the aircraft. It was they who misinterpreted
the situation and pushed the nose up stalling the aircraft.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/27/air-france-crash-inquiry

Bottom line is that many manually flown aircraft have been lost
when pitot tubes failed. Being in a severe thunderstorm at
high altitude in the dark is not a good place to lose the
air speed indicator. There is a reason for that flight regime
being called coffin corner.

Keith
Jim Wilkins
2011-07-17 12:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
...
The article at the link below indicates clearly that when it got conflicting
IAS values the computer disconnected the autopilot and that the
pilots were manually flying the aircraft. It was they who misinterpreted
the situation and pushed the nose up stalling the aircraft.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/27/air-france-crash-inquiry
...
Keith-
The article suggests to me that the aircraft was falling like a
parachute in a stable position, ie the passengers wouldn't notice.
Would the elevator have enough authority to overcome this to drop the
nose? Engine N1 speed had fallen to half as though they weren't taking
in enough air to generate thrust, pointed up while falling.

"...the passengers would not have sensed something was seriously
wrong. They would have felt mild buffeting of the stalled airflow over
the wings and the initial sinking feeling. That's all."

Quick, everyone run to the front!

jsw
Keith Willshaw
2011-07-17 13:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Keith Willshaw
...
The article at the link below indicates clearly that when it got
conflicting IAS values the computer disconnected the autopilot and
that the
pilots were manually flying the aircraft. It was they who
misinterpreted the situation and pushed the nose up stalling the
aircraft.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/27/air-france-crash-inquiry
...
Keith-
The article suggests to me that the aircraft was falling like a
parachute in a stable position, ie the passengers wouldn't notice.
Would the elevator have enough authority to overcome this to drop the
nose? Engine N1 speed had fallen to half as though they weren't taking
in enough air to generate thrust, pointed up while falling.
The final angle of attack was apparently 35 degree, its quite possible
that this produced an unrecoverable deep stall we will have
to wait for the final report I suspect.
Post by Jim Wilkins
"...the passengers would not have sensed something was seriously
wrong. They would have felt mild buffeting of the stalled airflow over
the wings and the initial sinking feeling. That's all."
Quick, everyone run to the front!
jsw
I think they notice the 35 degree AOA

Keith
Jim Wilkins
2011-07-17 20:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Keith Willshaw
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/27/air-france-crash-inquiry
"...the passengers would not have sensed something was seriously
wrong. They would have felt mild buffeting of the stalled airflow over
the wings and the initial sinking feeling. That's all."
Quick, everyone run to the front!
jsw
I think they notice the 35 degree AOA
--as they tumbled to the rear. I'm just quoting the experts.

jsws
Eunometic
2011-07-18 04:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Willshaw
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what was
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a
stall recovery from that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at the
pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault. The
pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably wouldn't have
in this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that fact that there
was a big design fault in the computer software that controls the
plane.
The software was less at fault than the pitot tube which is
why airbus had to swap them out as a matter of urgency.
Keith- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
The Airfrance A-330 did not have standard Goodyear Pitot-Static tubes.

Air France had insisted that they be replaced by a different French
build sensor.
Ron
2011-07-15 23:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne Onime
Post by Richard
Centered on lack of effective training to recognize a high speed
"The most troubling unanswered questions center around why the crew
was unable to recognize that the airplane was not flying, but rather
falling like a rock from 35,000 feet. If they did understand what was
happening, why were they unable to take the required action to make
the Airbus fly again? In the 2009 Colgan crash at Buffalo, neither
member of that crew had ever experienced a stick shaker/pusher
combination as the aircraft stalled, nor had they ever demonstrated a
stall recovery from that altitude."
The French are always suspiciously fast at pointing the finger at the
pilots, while in this case clearly the aircraft was at fault. The
pilots may not have responded correctly (most probably wouldn't have in
this case) but that still shouldn't obscure that fact that there was a
big design fault in the computer software that controls the plane.
I disagree that clearly the plane was at fault. Did the airspeed
indicator fail? Yes. Did the aircrafts control "laws" remove stall
protection. Yes
But the pilots for some reason stalled the airplane, and kept it in
that stall. The loss of the airspeed indication was only for about a
minute anyways, and losing airspeed does not make the airplane go into
a stall where it is going down fast.

Instruments fail, thats just happens. They had more than enough
remaining instruments to safety fly. They had a working artificial
horizon and 4 good engines too. Losing an airspeed indication is not
going to make an airworthy aircraft fall into the ocean

The other night I was intentionally flying around in Cumulonimbus at
night at about 20,000 ft +_ 1000 or so, with updrafts and downdrafts.
Had severe levels of icing too, violent vertical air movement,
frequent lightning, hail, fun things like that. But you keep your
head on straight and fly the damn airplane.

Now flying the A330 may be more like a video game than an airplane,
but at some point you have to use your head in the cockpit. sure, its
probably instinctive to react to losing altitude by pulling back, but
you have to realize what is going on, and take the appropriate
action.

I dont doubt that cockpit of that Airbus may have gotten confusing,
with different airspeed indications, a stall warning that would turn
off at 60 knots IAS and then come back on as you went faster than
that. But its my opinion that good stick and rudder pilot would not
have crashed it.
====
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