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why both US and the Japanese scuttled warships
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a425couple
2019-11-19 00:42:09 UTC
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A decent one from Quora.
About - why both US and the Japanese scuttled warships

Both the US and the Japanese scuttled carriers in the battle of Midway.
The reason I have heard was to prevent their capture. Was this a serious
concern? How would they have used captured carriers and what
complications would they need to overcome?

David Fred
David Fred, former ETN2 Instructor ET "A" and "B" schools at United
States Navy (1976-1980)
Answered Nov 11 · Upvoted by Leigh Dyer, former Electrician’s Mate at
United States Navy (1980-2000)
Well, the ship hulls, if saved, could, in theory, be reused. But that
wasn’t the reason.

More importantly, especially in the US case, which was far advanced in
radar, Mark 37 fire control (see Battle of the Surigao Strait (Leyte
Gulf Collection). Also, the VT fuse later in the war on US carriers, and
the Mark 37 also operated the vicious AA US ships were capable of.

And for both nations, there were secret documents, coding machines, all
manner of secrets, both large and small, and on a ship that large,
presumably on fire and/or sinking, finding all that material, and
getting it overboard was impossible. Also, each side had developed
various innovations in aircraft. Neither party wanted their “latest and
greatest” to fall into enemy hands.

So, it was not so much the ships that were scuttled, it was their
numerous and varied secret contents.
Jim Wilkins
2019-11-19 01:47:40 UTC
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Post by a425couple
A decent one from Quora.
About - why both US and the Japanese scuttled warships
Both the US and the Japanese scuttled carriers in the battle of
Midway. The reason I have heard was to prevent their capture. Was
this a serious concern? How would they have used captured carriers
and what complications would they need to overcome?
David Fred
David Fred, former ETN2 Instructor ET "A" and "B" schools at United
States Navy (1976-1980)
Answered Nov 11 · Upvoted by Leigh Dyer, former Electrician's Mate
at United States Navy (1980-2000)
Well, the ship hulls, if saved, could, in theory, be reused. But
that wasn't the reason.
More importantly, especially in the US case, which was far advanced
in radar, Mark 37 fire control (see Battle of the Surigao Strait
(Leyte Gulf Collection). Also, the VT fuse later in the war on US
carriers, and the Mark 37 also operated the vicious AA US ships were
capable of.
And for both nations, there were secret documents, coding machines,
all manner of secrets, both large and small, and on a ship that
large, presumably on fire and/or sinking, finding all that material,
and getting it overboard was impossible. Also, each side had
developed various innovations in aircraft. Neither party wanted
their "latest and greatest" to fall into enemy hands.
So, it was not so much the ships that were scuttled, it was their
numerous and varied secret contents.
I've seen inadequate catapults given as the reason why their Navy
stuck with the obsolescent, light-weight Zero while their Army
acquired faster, heavier fighter planes that rivalled ours.
Scott Kozel
2019-11-19 03:55:59 UTC
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Post by a425couple
A decent one from Quora.
About - why both US and the Japanese scuttled warships
Both the US and the Japanese scuttled carriers in the battle of Midway.
The IJN did, but the USN did not.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2019-11-19 12:58:54 UTC
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Post by a425couple
A decent one from Quora.
About - why both US and the Japanese scuttled warships
Both the US and the Japanese scuttled carriers in the battle of Midway.
No, the IJN scuttled Akagi and Hiryu at Midway, Yorktown was finished
off by a submarine.

The USN tried to scuttle Hornet at Sana Cruz but failed, the Japanese
were able to board the ship before deciding it was too far gone to
salvage, so they finished it off.

The IJN salvaged USS Stewart, becoming Patrol Vessel 102, along
with HMS Thracian, becoming Patrol Vessel 101
Post by a425couple
The reason I have heard was to prevent their capture. Was this a serious
concern? How would they have used captured carriers and what complications
would they need to overcome?
They certainly could have used the warships, with lots of problems
starting with one side using metric and the other imperial
measurements
Post by a425couple
David Fred
David Fred, former ETN2 Instructor ET "A" and "B" schools at United States
Navy (1976-1980)
Answered Nov 11 · Upvoted by Leigh Dyer, former Electrician’s Mate at
United States Navy (1980-2000)
Well, the ship hulls, if saved, could, in theory, be reused. But that wasn’t
the reason.
It was a reason but essentially there were multiple reasons
Post by a425couple
More importantly, especially in the US case, which was far advanced in
radar, Mark 37 fire control (see Battle of the Surigao Strait (Leyte Gulf
Collection). Also, the VT fuse later in the war on US carriers, and the
Mark 37 also operated the vicious AA US ships were capable of.
Note to help the Germans pre war the IJN supplied the blueprints to
Yorktown, a lot of secrets about ship construction and things like fire
control were not. At the same time a real example to study for as long
as required would be a definite help.
Post by a425couple
And for both nations, there were secret documents, coding machines, all
manner of secrets, both large and small, and on a ship that large,
presumably on fire and/or sinking, finding all that material, and getting
it overboard was impossible.
Secret material was carefully tracked and controlled, with procedures
for disposal, being classified material it was kept under watch. The
electronics fit would be another matter.
Post by a425couple
Also, each side had developed various innovations in aircraft. Neither
party wanted their “latest and greatest” to fall into enemy hands.
Offensive air warfare delivers plenty of aircraft wrecks for the other side
to study, if they choose to do so.
Post by a425couple
So, it was not so much the ships that were scuttled, it was their numerous
and varied secret contents.
While that was a reason the propaganda value of the enemy salvaging
the ship was a factor, along with it is usually quicker to repair a ship
than build a new one.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Scott Kozel
2019-11-20 05:00:07 UTC
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Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by a425couple
A decent one from Quora.
About - why both US and the Japanese scuttled warships
Both the US and the Japanese scuttled carriers in the battle of Midway.
No, the IJN scuttled Akagi and Hiryu at Midway, Yorktown was finished
off by a submarine.
The 2005 book, _Shattered Sword_, by Parshall and Tully, makes the case that
all four IJN carriers were scuttled.
Keith Willshaw
2019-11-25 19:56:05 UTC
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Post by a425couple
More importantly, especially in the US case, which was far advanced in
radar, Mark 37 fire control (see Battle of the Surigao Strait (Leyte
Gulf Collection). Also, the VT fuse later in the war on US carriers, and
the Mark 37 also operated the vicious AA US ships were capable of.
And for both nations, there were secret documents, coding machines, all
manner of secrets, both large and small, and on a ship that large,
presumably on fire and/or sinking, finding all that material, and
getting it overboard was impossible. Also, each side had developed
various innovations in aircraft. Neither party wanted their “latest and
greatest” to fall into enemy hands.
So, it was not so much the ships that were scuttled, it was their
numerous and varied secret contents.
Realistically the Japanese at that time simply did not have the
industrial or technical capacity to copy advanced radars, or the Mk 37
fire control system. The Germans had captured a number of centimetric
radars from downed Allied aircraft. They were able to build a 10 cm band
sets but were unable to produce the 3cm version> they lacked the
capacity to mass produce them. The radar set was easy to make, the
cavity magnetron was not. The reason Britih technology such as the
cavity magnetron and proximity fuse were hande over to the USA was that
only it had the spare industrial capacity to mass produce them.

The major reason all sides scuttled their ships was to avoid giving a
propaganda coup to the enemy. Having Kaga towed into Pearl Harbor would
have been the ultimate loss of face just as having the Kriegsmarine tow
HMS Ark Royal into a German occupied port would have been.
Scott Kozel
2019-11-26 03:17:58 UTC
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Post by Keith Willshaw
The major reason all sides scuttled their ships was to avoid giving a
propaganda coup to the enemy. Having Kaga towed into Pearl Harbor would
have been the ultimate loss of face just as having the Kriegsmarine tow
HMS Ark Royal into a German occupied port would have been.
Giving up of classified and secret documents as well, and technological
secrets.
Jim Wilkins
2019-11-26 12:59:31 UTC
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Post by Scott Kozel
Post by Keith Willshaw
The major reason all sides scuttled their ships was to avoid giving a
propaganda coup to the enemy. Having Kaga towed into Pearl Harbor would
have been the ultimate loss of face just as having the Kriegsmarine tow
HMS Ark Royal into a German occupied port would have been.
Giving up of classified and secret documents as well, and
technological
secrets.
I've built my own low power 3CM Doppler radar with modern components.
The trick is more in knowing how than in doing it, which is largely
cutting, forming and soldering sheet brass into waveguides.

The cavity magnetron isn't a difficult shape to machine, even in a
small home shop like mine. The holes can be drilled and reamed, and
the slots into them broached. Sam Colt mass-produced the similar
revolver cylinder in the 1850's. Many aero engine parts are more
difficult, especially 3-dimensionally curved supercharger blades which
challenged US manufacturers. Researchers in many nations had reported
significant advances with magnetrons before secrecy silenced them,
Japan's Yagi and Okabe being early leaders.

http://ed-thelen.org/EarlyMagnetron-r-.pdf
"Like radar itself, the cavity magnetron was "a simultane-
ous invention" in different nations. However, it is generally
recognized that Birmingham University implemented the first
high-power version of this microwave device that was easily
reproducible and suited for mass production."

That 1928 issue of IRE Proceedings that published Prof. Yagi's
microwave advances also described a 25KHz alternator used as a high
power radio transmitter, so it covered both the latest tech and the
most primitive.
Jim Wilkins
2019-11-26 16:27:17 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
...
The cavity magnetron isn't a difficult shape to machine, even in a
small home shop like mine. The holes can be drilled and reamed, and
the slots into them broached.
This shows how broaching makes holes that aren't round.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broaching_(metalworking)

Add the final ) that doesn't cut and paste correctly.
Scott Kozel
2019-11-26 21:58:47 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Scott Kozel
Post by Keith Willshaw
The major reason all sides scuttled their ships was to avoid giving a
propaganda coup to the enemy. Having Kaga towed into Pearl Harbor would
have been the ultimate loss of face just as having the Kriegsmarine tow
HMS Ark Royal into a German occupied port would have been.
Giving up of classified and secret documents as well, and
technological
secrets.
I've built my own low power 3CM Doppler radar with modern components.
The trick is more in knowing how than in doing it, which is largely
cutting, forming and soldering sheet brass into waveguides.
The cavity magnetron isn't a difficult shape to machine, even in a
small home shop like mine. The holes can be drilled and reamed, and
the slots into them broached. Sam Colt mass-produced the similar
revolver cylinder in the 1850's. Many aero engine parts are more
difficult, especially 3-dimensionally curved supercharger blades which
challenged US manufacturers. Researchers in many nations had reported
significant advances with magnetrons before secrecy silenced them,
Japan's Yagi and Okabe being early leaders.
http://ed-thelen.org/EarlyMagnetron-r-.pdf
"Like radar itself, the cavity magnetron was "a simultane-
ous invention" in different nations. However, it is generally
recognized that Birmingham University implemented the first
high-power version of this microwave device that was easily
reproducible and suited for mass production."
That 1928 issue of IRE Proceedings that published Prof. Yagi's
microwave advances also described a 25KHz alternator used as a high
power radio transmitter, so it covered both the latest tech and the
most primitive.
Code books, ops plans, internal ship systems, aircraft …
Any number of things that would be deemed undesirable to
fall into enemy hands.

Thus justifying a few torpedoes to make sure that doesn't
happen.
Jim Wilkins
2019-11-26 22:59:18 UTC
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"Scott Kozel" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3a531d20-8230-4202-b815-***@googlegroups.com...
...
Code books, ops plans, internal ship systems, aircraft .
Any number of things that would be deemed undesirable to
fall into enemy hands.

Thus justifying a few torpedoes to make sure that doesn't
happen.
----------------------

http://intelmsl.com/insights/history/u-505/

The US crew could save it because the German assigned to flood the
boat had removed a sea water strainer cover and just left it nearby,
so it could be reinstalled to stop the flooding.

https://www.amazon.com/Steel-Boat-Iron-Hearts-Crewmans/dp/1932714316
Scott Kozel
2019-11-26 23:26:32 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
...
Code books, ops plans, internal ship systems, aircraft .
Any number of things that would be deemed undesirable to
fall into enemy hands.
Thus justifying a few torpedoes to make sure that doesn't
happen.
----------------------
http://intelmsl.com/insights/history/u-505/
The US crew could save it because the German assigned to flood the
boat had removed a sea water strainer cover and just left it nearby,
so it could be reinstalled to stop the flooding.
https://www.amazon.com/Steel-Boat-Iron-Hearts-Crewmans/dp/1932714316
I saw it back in the 1960s in Chicago.
Keith Willshaw
2019-11-28 18:52:08 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
...
Code books, ops plans, internal ship systems, aircraft .
Any number of things that would be deemed undesirable to
fall into enemy hands.
Thus justifying a few torpedoes to make sure that doesn't
happen.
----------------------
http://intelmsl.com/insights/history/u-505/
The US crew could save it because the German assigned to flood the
boat had removed a sea water strainer cover and just left it nearby,
so it could be reinstalled to stop the flooding.
https://www.amazon.com/Steel-Boat-Iron-Hearts-Crewmans/dp/1932714316
Its entirely possible to destroy codebooks without sinking the ship
especially in deep water. If they went overboard in a weighted bag in
the middle of the ocean they were gone. The real problems arose when
they were not destroyed and the scuttling didnt happen quickly enough or
at all.

U-110 was a classic example of this - the crew were convinced it was
sinking so left the Kurzsignale code book and Enigma machine on board
when they abandoned ship - Doh !

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