Discussion:
Vietnam, any US planes lost in China ?
(too old to reply)
Mike
2003-11-03 01:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Were there ever any United States combat planes lost in China during
the Vietnam war ? Some of our planes must have flown close enough to
China that they may have possibly had to crash there.
MBenShar
2003-11-03 01:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mike,

Here's one. On September 20, 1965, USAF Captain Philip E. Smith, 436 TFS, 479
TFW (attached to 6252 TFW) Da Nang, flying an F-104C 56-0883, strayed off
course from a combat air patrol over the Gulf of Tonkin following an instrument
failure. He was shot down over China by Chinese MiG-19s and captured.

The incident is told in "Journey Into Darkness" by Col. Philip E. Smith & Peggy
Hertz

Hope this is of some help

Regards
Mike Bennett
(Project: Get Out and Walk)
Ed Rasimus
2003-11-03 15:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by MBenShar
Dear Mike,
Here's one. On September 20, 1965, USAF Captain Philip E. Smith, 436 TFS, 479
TFW (attached to 6252 TFW) Da Nang, flying an F-104C 56-0883, strayed off
course from a combat air patrol over the Gulf of Tonkin following an instrument
failure. He was shot down over China by Chinese MiG-19s and captured.
The incident is told in "Journey Into Darkness" by Col. Philip E. Smith & Peggy
Hertz
Well, there's "China" and then there's "China". Smith was shot down
over Hainan Island which is Chinese territory, but not mainland China.
It's about a hundred miles off shore in the NE area of the Tonkin
Gulf.

There were incursions into China (been there, done that), but there
was a 25 mile buffer zone along the NVN border and most of the time
there was radar oversight from Red Crown and Disco that provided Guard
channel warnings of buffer zone transgressions.

Don't know that anyone was shot down or bailed out in China proper.
MBenShar
2003-11-04 23:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Ed,

Great to have a reply from you. Yes I agree - there's China and there's China.
Can't disagree with your location of the shootdowns.

Here is the very rough list of "US planes lost in China" allowing for the wider
definition Chinese territory.

BTW as part of my project to list all known ejections world wide I've (not
surprisingly) never received any replies from the Chinese authorities about
ejections from their own aircraft nor about aircraft shot down by Chinese
pilots.

I hope the following is of some use to the gentleman who asked the original
question - sources are, "Journey into Darkness" by Col. Philip E. Smith and
Peggy Herz; the POW Network SCOPE Datatbase; "Vietnam Air Losses" by Chris
Hobson and "Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club" by Rene Francillon.


09 April 1965
F-4B
151425
VF-96 - USS Ranger
Ensign Ronald J. Fegan (K/BNR)
Lt(jg). Terence M. Murphy (K/BNR)


20 September 1965
Capt. Phillip E. Smith (POW)
F-104C
56-0883
436 TFS, 479TFW (attached to 6252 TFW) Da Nang

12 April 1966
KA-3B
142653 ZB-3
Det. C, VAH-4 - USS Kitty Hawk
Lt. Cdr. William A. Glasson (MIA)
Lt(jg) Larry M. Jordan (MIA)
ATCS Reuben B. Harris (MIA)
PRCS Kenneth W. Pugh (MIA - Remains Returned 16-December 1975)
Shot down by Chinese MiGs over the Luichow Peninsula in Kuangtung province
Try this website
http://www.scopesys.com/cgi/bio2.cgi?bio=G017



21 August 1967
A-6A
152627
VA-196 - USS Constellation
Lt(jg) Dain Vanderlin Scott (KIA)
Lt(jg) Forrest George Trembley (KIA)

A-6A
152625
VA-196 - USS Constellation
Lt. Cdr Jimmy Lee Buckley (KIA)
Lt. Robert James Flynn (POW) (Ejected)



14 February 1968
A-1H
134499
VA-25 - USS Coral Sea
Lt(jg) Joseph P. Dunn (MIA)


Regards
Mike Bennett
Tamworth, England
Project: Get Out and Walk
J***@yahoo.com
2017-05-16 19:21:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by MBenShar
Dear Ed,
Great to have a reply from you. Yes I agree - there's China and there's China.
Can't disagree with your location of the shootdowns.
Here is the very rough list of "US planes lost in China" allowing for the wider
definition Chinese territory.
BTW as part of my project to list all known ejections world wide I've (not
surprisingly) never received any replies from the Chinese authorities about
ejections from their own aircraft nor about aircraft shot down by Chinese
pilots.
I hope the following is of some use to the gentleman who asked the original
question - sources are, "Journey into Darkness" by Col. Philip E. Smith and
Peggy Herz; the POW Network SCOPE Datatbase; "Vietnam Air Losses" by Chris
Hobson and "Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club" by Rene Francillon.
09 April 1965
F-4B
151425
VF-96 - USS Ranger
Ensign Ronald J. Fegan (K/BNR)
Lt(jg). Terence M. Murphy (K/BNR)
20 September 1965
Capt. Phillip E. Smith (POW)
F-104C
56-0883
436 TFS, 479TFW (attached to 6252 TFW) Da Nang
12 April 1966
KA-3B
142653 ZB-3
Det. C, VAH-4 - USS Kitty Hawk
Lt. Cdr. William A. Glasson (MIA)
Lt(jg) Larry M. Jordan (MIA)
ATCS Reuben B. Harris (MIA)
PRCS Kenneth W. Pugh (MIA - Remains Returned 16-December 1975)
Shot down by Chinese MiGs over the Luichow Peninsula in Kuangtung province
Try this website
http://www.scopesys.com/cgi/bio2.cgi?bio=G017
June 26, 1967
F-4C
63-7577
Post by MBenShar
399 TFS,366 TFW
Maj J C Blanford (REC)
1Lt J M Jarvis (REC)
Post by MBenShar
21 August 1967
A-6A
152627
VA-196 - USS Constellation
Lt(jg) Dain Vanderlin Scott (KIA)
Lt(jg) Forrest George Trembley (KIA)
A-6A
152625
VA-196 - USS Constellation
Lt. Cdr Jimmy Lee Buckley (KIA)
Lt. Robert James Flynn (POW) (Ejected)
14 February 1968
A-1H
134499
VA-25 - USS Coral Sea
Lt(jg) Joseph P. Dunn (MIA)
Regards
Mike Bennett
Tamworth, England
Project: Get Out and Walk
Juvat
2003-11-03 04:24:43 UTC
Permalink
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Mike
Post by Mike
Some of our planes must have flown close enough to
China that they may have possibly had to crash there.
Ed's been there...and didn't crash.

Juvat
Cub Driver
2003-11-03 10:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Were there ever any United States combat planes lost in China during
the Vietnam war ? Some of our planes must have flown close enough to
China that they may have possibly had to crash there.
I don't think so. And the buffer zones were supposed to prevent any
such incursion.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: ***@eudoramail.com (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
MBenShar
2003-11-03 11:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sparky,

Two USN A-6A Intruders from VA-196A off USS Constellation
were reported shot down by Chinese MiG-19 aircraft when they inadvertently
crossed into Chinese airspace on 21 August, 1967

A-6A buno 152627
Crew:
Lt(jg) Dain Vanderlin Scott (KIA)
Lt(jg) Forrest George Trembley (KIA)

A-6A buno 152625
Crew:
Lt. Cdr Jimmy Lee Buckley (KIA)
Lt. Robert James Flynn (POW) (Ejected)

However Lt. Flynn who was injured during his ejection contradicts this version
of events and states that he was shot down over North Vietnam and taken to
China.

Suggest you look at the following POW web page

http://www.scopesys.com/cgi/bio2.cgi?bio=F049

Also go to the search page

http://www.scopesys.com/powmia/powsearch.html

and in the Country of Loss box click on China from the drop down list.

When the list of Blue names appears click on each one individually to get to
their biography.


Hope this helps

Regards
Mike Bennett
(Project: Get Out and Walk)
Tom Cooper
2003-11-03 17:18:26 UTC
Permalink
In addition to several incidents in which the Chinese fighters were
intercepting mainly USN aircraft passing by the Hainan Island, between 1968
and 1970 the 100th TRW USAF intensively operated also BQM-34 reconnaissance
drones over Chinese mainland and North Vietnam.

Dozens of these were shot down by Chinese and Vietnamese air defences:
mostly SAM&AAA, but few also by Chinese and Vietnamese MiGs (in turn the
BQM-34s have caused a loss of up to a dozen of MiGs: there is a story that
one of the drones even became the first US "ace" in SEA - after causing a
loss of five Vietnamese MiG-17s and MiG-21s, in early 1970).

Interestingly, the Chinese developed a whole family of UAVs on the basis of
the wreckage of US BQM-34s, starting with air-launched Chang Hing ("Long
Rainbow", originally air-launched from a Tu-4 bomber - the Soviet copy of
the B-29), developed by the Beijing Technical Institute and carried by
specially equipped Y-8E transports. Even the newest Chinese Chong Hong UAV,
the model of which was shown two years back on the Air Show in Zhuhai, is
clearly showing the resemblance to the AQM-34N.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585
David Lednicer
2003-11-03 17:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Take a look at: http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/usloss.html

Any loss where the "country" reads "PR China" was shot down by Chinese
forces, mostly likely over Chinese territory.
d***@gmail.com
2020-06-24 06:49:28 UTC
Permalink
在 2003年11月3日星期一 UTC+8上午9:34:46,Mike写道:
Post by Mike
Were there ever any United States combat planes lost in China during
the Vietnam war ? Some of our planes must have flown close enough to
China that they may have possibly had to crash there.
1965.4.9 F-4B 151403
1965.9.20 F-104C 56-0883
1966.4.12 KA-3B 142653
1967.6.26 F-4C 63-7577
1867.8.21 A-6A 152627
A-6A 152625
1968.2.14 A-1H 134499
a425couple
2020-06-24 15:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
在 2003年11月3日星期一 UTC+8上午9:34:46,Mike写道:
Post by Mike
Were there ever any United States combat planes lost in China during
the Vietnam war ? Some of our planes must have flown close enough to
China that they may have possibly had to crash there.
1965.4.9 F-4B 151403
1965.9.20 F-104C 56-0883
1966.4.12 KA-3B 142653
1967.6.26 F-4C 63-7577
1867.8.21 A-6A 152627
A-6A 152625
1968.2.14 A-1H 134499
Nationalist China / Formosa had a fair number
of U-2 planes lost in mainland China.
But IMHO that was before what we call "Vietnam War".

I'd tend to believe that the USA mostly
kept it's U-2s and SR-71s off on the edges.

There have been persistent rumors that B-36s and
their light weight super high recon version RB-36D & H,
roamed freely over any border they wished.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36_Peacemaker

from
https://acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/convair-b-36-the-ultimate-peacemaker/
states,
"USAF reconnaissance missions using the RB-36 included flights
from Japan over Manchuria in Communist China and the Soviet Union
(flights from the UK also flew over Soviet arctic bases)."
Dean Markley
2020-06-24 15:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by d***@gmail.com
在 2003年11月3日星期一 UTC+8上午9:34:46,Mike写道:
Post by Mike
Were there ever any United States combat planes lost in China during
the Vietnam war ? Some of our planes must have flown close enough to
China that they may have possibly had to crash there.
1965.4.9 F-4B 151403
1965.9.20 F-104C 56-0883
1966.4.12 KA-3B 142653
1967.6.26 F-4C 63-7577
1867.8.21 A-6A 152627
A-6A 152625
1968.2.14 A-1H 134499
Nationalist China / Formosa had a fair number
of U-2 planes lost in mainland China.
But IMHO that was before what we call "Vietnam War".
I'd tend to believe that the USA mostly
kept it's U-2s and SR-71s off on the edges.
There have been persistent rumors that B-36s and
their light weight super high recon version RB-36D & H,
roamed freely over any border they wished.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36_Peacemaker
from
https://acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/convair-b-36-the-ultimate-peacemaker/
states,
"USAF reconnaissance missions using the RB-36 included flights
from Japan over Manchuria in Communist China and the Soviet Union
(flights from the UK also flew over Soviet arctic bases)."
Over 17 years ago, Tom Cooper (scroll up a few) mentioned a BQM drone in Vietnam achieving "ace" status. Is there any truth to this or is it just a good story?
a425couple
2020-06-25 15:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dean Markley
Post by a425couple
Post by d***@gmail.com
在 2003年11月3日星期一 UTC+8上午9:34:46,Mike写道:
Post by Mike
Were there ever any United States combat planes lost in China during
the Vietnam war ? Some of our planes must have flown close enough to
China that they may have possibly had to crash there.
1965.4.9 F-4B 151403
1965.9.20 F-104C 56-0883
1966.4.12 KA-3B 142653
1967.6.26 F-4C 63-7577
1867.8.21 A-6A 152627
A-6A 152625
1968.2.14 A-1H 134499
Nationalist China / Formosa had a fair number
of U-2 planes lost in mainland China.
But IMHO that was before what we call "Vietnam War".
I'd tend to believe that the USA mostly
kept it's U-2s and SR-71s off on the edges.
There have been persistent rumors that B-36s and
their light weight super high recon version RB-36D & H,
roamed freely over any border they wished.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36_Peacemaker
from
https://acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/convair-b-36-the-ultimate-peacemaker/
states,
"USAF reconnaissance missions using the RB-36 included flights
from Japan over Manchuria in Communist China and the Soviet Union
(flights from the UK also flew over Soviet arctic bases)."
Over 17 years ago, Tom Cooper (scroll up a few) mentioned a BQM drone in Vietnam achieving "ace" status. Is there any truth to this or is it just a good story?
I'm not sure what you are talking about.

I have read:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-vietnam-fighter-aces-terrorized-us-pilots-92871?page=0%2C1
Does that cover it?
Dean Markley
2020-06-25 18:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by Dean Markley
Post by a425couple
Post by d***@gmail.com
在 2003年11月3日星期一 UTC+8上午9:34:46,Mike写道:
Post by Mike
Were there ever any United States combat planes lost in China during
the Vietnam war ? Some of our planes must have flown close enough to
China that they may have possibly had to crash there.
1965.4.9 F-4B 151403
1965.9.20 F-104C 56-0883
1966.4.12 KA-3B 142653
1967.6.26 F-4C 63-7577
1867.8.21 A-6A 152627
A-6A 152625
1968.2.14 A-1H 134499
Nationalist China / Formosa had a fair number
of U-2 planes lost in mainland China.
But IMHO that was before what we call "Vietnam War".
I'd tend to believe that the USA mostly
kept it's U-2s and SR-71s off on the edges.
There have been persistent rumors that B-36s and
their light weight super high recon version RB-36D & H,
roamed freely over any border they wished.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36_Peacemaker
from
https://acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/convair-b-36-the-ultimate-peacemaker/
states,
"USAF reconnaissance missions using the RB-36 included flights
from Japan over Manchuria in Communist China and the Soviet Union
(flights from the UK also flew over Soviet arctic bases)."
Over 17 years ago, Tom Cooper (scroll up a few) mentioned a BQM drone in Vietnam achieving "ace" status. Is there any truth to this or is it just a good story?
I'm not sure what you are talking about.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-vietnam-fighter-aces-terrorized-us-pilots-92871?page=0%2C1
Does that cover it?
Scroll up to the post by Tom Cooper. Or read this cut and paste:

Tom Cooper
11/3/03
In addition to several incidents in which the Chinese fighters were
intercepting mainly USN aircraft passing by the Hainan Island, between 1968
and 1970 the 100th TRW USAF intensively operated also BQM-34 reconnaissance
drones over Chinese mainland and North Vietnam.
Dozens of these were shot down by Chinese and Vietnamese air defences:
mostly SAM&AAA, but few also by Chinese and Vietnamese MiGs (in turn the
BQM-34s have caused a loss of up to a dozen of MiGs: there is a story that
one of the drones even became the first US "ace" in SEA - after causing a
loss of five Vietnamese MiG-17s and MiG-21s, in early 1970).

Interestingly, the Chinese developed a whole family of UAVs on the basis of
the wreckage of US BQM-34s, starting with air-launched Chang Hing ("Long
Rainbow", originally air-launched from a Tu-4 bomber - the Soviet copy of
the B-29), developed by the Beijing Technical Institute and carried by
specially equipped Y-8E transports. Even the newest Chinese Chong Hong UAV,
the model of which was shown two years back on the Air Show in Zhuhai, is
clearly showing the resemblance to the AQM-34N.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

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