Discussion:
F-14 D VS SU-27
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w***@gmail.com
2019-10-30 06:06:13 UTC
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How would the F-14 D with its much improved Thrust/weight ratio do
against the Su-27 or the F-15 C.The F-14 is still a great bvr
fighter,and with the D model it should do well in a dogfight
against the SU-27,since US navy pilots are among the best in the world.I
would like to hear other comments on this.
Well guys many many years after these responses I am going to point out that Iranian AF still flys the f14 and used the AIM54A very successfully against all enemy threats. Many enemy aircraft were splashed by the AIM54A. So, now 22 years later, the AIM54C would be even better to fight with. TheF14 turns much tighter than pilots realize, through design and innovation way back in the 70's. This bird could turn on a dime with 9 cents change given back to you. Look at Top Gun action pics again, closely, and you will the F14 just turn on it's wingtip point, which no other aircraft can do.
Dean Markley
2019-10-30 11:38:06 UTC
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Post by w***@gmail.com
How would the F-14 D with its much improved Thrust/weight ratio do
against the Su-27 or the F-15 C.The F-14 is still a great bvr
fighter,and with the D model it should do well in a dogfight
against the SU-27,since US navy pilots are among the best in the world.I
would like to hear other comments on this.
Well guys many many years after these responses I am going to point out that Iranian AF still flys the f14 and used the AIM54A very successfully against all enemy threats. Many enemy aircraft were splashed by the AIM54A. So, now 22 years later, the AIM54C would be even better to fight with. TheF14 turns much tighter than pilots realize, through design and innovation way back in the 70's. This bird could turn on a dime with 9 cents change given back to you. Look at Top Gun action pics again, closely, and you will the F14 just turn on it's wingtip point, which no other aircraft can do.
But there are no AIM-54Cs anymore.
Jeff Crowell
2019-11-05 15:00:14 UTC
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Post by Dean Markley
But there are no AIM-54Cs anymore.
Indeed. Any remaining Phoenix missile's rocket motor has long since expired. And certainly no sourced of spares or replacement parts, for the missile or the bird.

Supposedly, the Iranians have jury-rigged Hawk missiles to be launched from the Tomcats. I have no opinion on that, but I suppose it's possible.

Even as far back as the Iran-Iraq war, the Iranians mostly used the Turkeys as mini-AWACS, and did the shooting and scooting with Phantoms and Tiger IIs. Wiki says that one Iranian pilot shot down 11 Iraqi aircraft in a Tomcat, so there definitely was some turning and burning done by them.

Iran has built itself some level of aerospace industry (at least enough to build helos), but there's only so many times you can zero-time an airframe with a bootstrap industry.


Jeff
--
You are outgunned only if you miss. - Jeff Cooper
Peter Stickney
2019-11-06 08:38:57 UTC
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Post by Jeff Crowell
Post by Dean Markley
But there are no AIM-54Cs anymore.
Indeed. Any remaining Phoenix missile's rocket motor has long since
expired. And certainly no sourced of spares or replacement parts, for
the missile or the bird.
Supposedly, the Iranians have jury-rigged Hawk missiles to be launched
from the Tomcats. I have no opinion on that, but I suppose it's
possible.
At first, I was dubious, It has been something rumored for years, but I
have since discovered that the Hawk SARH seeker is a derivative of the
seeker used on the early Sparrows. If a weapons control system can guide
an AIM-7E, then it could conceivably guide a Hawk.
As for the performance - the limits are going to be illuminator power and
receiver sensitivity, rather than kinematics.
Post by Jeff Crowell
Even as far back as the Iran-Iraq war, the Iranians mostly used the
Turkeys as mini-AWACS, and did the shooting and scooting with Phantoms
and Tiger IIs. Wiki says that one Iranian pilot shot down 11 Iraqi
aircraft in a Tomcat, so there definitely was some turning and burning
done by them.
Iran has built itself some level of aerospace industry (at least enough
to build helos), but there's only so many times you can zero-time an
airframe with a bootstrap industry.
Jeff
--
Pete Stickney
“A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures.” ― Daniel Webster
Jeff Crowell
2019-11-07 16:10:07 UTC
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Post by Peter Stickney
the Hawk SARH seeker is a derivative of the
seeker used on the early Sparrows. If a weapons control system can guide
an AIM-7E, then it could conceivably guide a Hawk.
The weapons control system on the aircraft does essentially nothing
to "guide" a Sparrow. There's some pre-launch palaver between missile
and aircraft, that's all, and the rest is just the missile seeking
reflected pulse Doppler or CW RF energy (in the case of AIM-7 variants,
anyway).
Post by Peter Stickney
As for the performance - the limits are going to be illuminator power and
receiver sensitivity, rather than kinematics.
True.


Jeff
--
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
Robert Heinlein
Peter Stickney
2019-11-20 03:31:43 UTC
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the Hawk SARH seeker is a derivative of the seeker used on the early
Sparrows. If a weapons control system can guide an AIM-7E, then it
could conceivably guide a Hawk.
The weapons control system on the aircraft does essentially nothing to
"guide" a Sparrow. There's some pre-launch palaver between missile and
aircraft, that's all, and the rest is just the missile seeking reflected
pulse Doppler or CW RF energy (in the case of AIM-7 variants,
anyway).
You're right on that - once the missile's flying, all it needs is the CW
beam from the illuminator.

I was oversimplifying. Before the missile launches, there's a whole
bunch of handshaking that goes on to get the missile woken up and looking
at the right place before the Fire Signal occurs - some of which would
probably require some translation from Sparrow to Hawk.
As for the performance - the limits are going to be illuminator power
and receiver sensitivity, rather than kinematics.
True.
Jeff
--
Pete Stickney
“A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures.” ― Daniel Webster
c***@gmail.com
2020-06-19 23:49:21 UTC
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How would the F-14 D with its much improved Thrust/weight ratio do
against the Su-27 or the F-15 C.The F-14 is still a great bvr
fighter,and with the D model it should do well in a dogfight
against the SU-27,since US navy pilots are among the best in the world.I
would like to hear other comments on this.
Most of the people here are very ignorant. F-14D Super Tomcat was developed in the 90s with modern avionics, the GE-F110 engines producing 60,000 lbsf of thrust and full electronic laser guided LANTRN, IRST pods. It was far more modern than the SU-27, which was developed in the 90s. The SU-30 or SU-35 would be a more fair comparison. Of course, this is from 1998. Internet was still new. F-14D had GE-F110 engines that produced 60,000 lbsf of thrust and it had variable geometry wings that allowed the wings to always be in the best position for maximum maneuverability and performance. F-14 was NOT limited to 6.5g. Geez! It was a NATOPS imposed limit for pilots to not exceed the 6.5 - 7.5g for longevity of the airframe. The plane regularly exceeded 9+ g and it is documented in Navy documnetation that the pilots were allowed to exceeed 9+ G in ACM combat training as long as there were checks after the ACM to ensure the airframe had no fatigue. The air show demo videos of F-14 prove how maneuverable it was. At 24 degree/seconds, almost nothing could out-turn F-14 at 400 - 450 knots (Mach 0.55 to Mach 0.6). Regarding SU-27 and its super maneuverability, you have to remember you trade energy for high AoA. Cobra maneuvers are great for airshows, but they do not in actual fights. That is why F-14 had a stellar combat record in combat training and real life combat for both USN and Iran. Iran had a 164:4 kill ratio with the F-14.

USN F-14s went against Luftwaffe MIG-29s, which were the best trained pilots in the west of the MIG-29 and absolutely had a field day against the MIG-29. Most of the Cobra maneuver fans would think MIG-29 would eat the F-14 for lunch in a close-end dogfight, but that is not what happened. It was a one-sided win for the F-14 because of the advantages F-14 has over the MIG-29 and how pilots exploited the weaknesses of the MIG-29.

Someone claiming F-14 was not fast LOL Are you kidding? It was faster than the SU-27 and could exceeed Mach 2.4 with relative ease. Those wings swept back gave it incredible accceleration capabilities. In the end, training is the biggest thing that would make the difference. Both planes have similar size, The F-14 has the thrust advantage and better thrust to weight ratio than the SU-27. SU-27 has better slow speed maneuverability. It depends on which pilot uses his strengths.

In a BVR fight, the powerful radar F-14 and ability to see more than 100 miles out had and the ability to shoot such long range, F-14 would see the SU-27 way before the SU-27 does the F-14. F-14 would get the first shot at the SU-27 way before the SU-27 gets at the F-14.
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