Discussion:
Vintage B-17 plane crashes, erupts into flames at Bradley International Airport near Hartford
(too old to reply)
a425couple
2019-10-02 15:03:50 UTC
Permalink
from
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vintage-b-17-plane-crashes-erupts-flames-bradley-international-airport-n1061161

Vintage B-17 plane crashes, erupts into flames at Bradley International
Airport near Hartford
The airport is playing host this week to a show of World War II-era planes.

(How many of them are still around and flying?
One visits up here in Pacific NW at least once a year
for celebrations and fund raising.))

Smoke plume seen at Hartford area airport after vintage plane crash
OCT. 2, 201903:37
Oct. 2, 2019, 7:36 AM PDT / Updated Oct. 2, 2019, 7:55 AM PDT
By David K. Li and Jay Blackman
A vintage World War II plane crashed and erupted into flames on
Wednesday morning at Bradley International Airport, just outside of
Hartford, Connecticut, authorities said.

"We can confirm that there was an accident involving a Collings
Foundation World War II aircraft this morning at Bradley Airport,"
according to an airport statement.

"We have an active fire and rescue operation underway. The airport is
closed. We will issue further updates as information becomes available,"
the Bradley airport statement said.

A Boeing B-17 used by the U.S. Air Force during World War IIA Boeing
B-17 used by the U.S. Air Force during World War II.Universal Images
Group via Getty Images
The FAA said the craft was a Boeing B-17 and it went down at the end of
Runway 6 at about 10 a.m. It was not immediately known how many people
were on board.

The International Association of Fire Fighters Local S15, the union
representing nearby first responders, tweeted a picture of black smoke
hovering over the airport with the message: "Our crews are operating at
an aircraft crash at Bradley airport."

The airport is playing host this week to a show of vintage World War II
craft.

The Boeing B-17 was once dubbed the “Flying Fortress” and played a key
role for Allied forces in Europe.

This is a developing story, please check back here for updates.

Image: David K. Li
David K. Li
David K. Li is a breaking news reporter for NBC News.

Jay Blackman
Jay Blackman is an NBC News producer covering such areas a
transportation, space, medical and consumer issues.
Jim Wilkins
2019-10-02 15:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
from
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vintage-b-17-plane-crashes-erupts-flames-bradley-international-airport-n1061161
Vintage B-17 plane crashes, erupts into flames at Bradley
International Airport near Hartford
The airport is playing host this week to a show of World War II-era planes.
(How many of them are still around and flying?
One visits up here in Pacific NW at least once a year
for celebrations and fund raising.))
Smoke plume seen at Hartford area airport after vintage plane crash
OCT. 2, 201903:37
Oct. 2, 2019, 7:36 AM PDT / Updated Oct. 2, 2019, 7:55 AM PDT
By David K. Li and Jay Blackman
A vintage World War II plane crashed and erupted into flames on
Wednesday morning at Bradley International Airport, just outside of
Hartford, Connecticut, authorities said.
"We can confirm that there was an accident involving a Collings
Foundation World War II aircraft this morning at Bradley Airport,"
according to an airport statement.
"We have an active fire and rescue operation underway. The airport
is closed. We will issue further updates as information becomes
available," the Bradley airport statement said.
A Boeing B-17 used by the U.S. Air Force during World War IIA Boeing
B-17 used by the U.S. Air Force during World War II.Universal Images
Group via Getty Images
The FAA said the craft was a Boeing B-17 and it went down at the end
of Runway 6 at about 10 a.m. It was not immediately known how many
people were on board.
The International Association of Fire Fighters Local S15, the union
representing nearby first responders, tweeted a picture of black
smoke hovering over the airport with the message: "Our crews are
operating at an aircraft crash at Bradley airport."
The airport is playing host this week to a show of vintage World War
II craft.
The Boeing B-17 was once dubbed the "Flying Fortress" and played a
key role for Allied forces in Europe.
This is a developing story, please check back here for updates.
Image: David K. Li
David K. Li
David K. Li is a breaking news reporter for NBC News.
Jay Blackman
Jay Blackman is an NBC News producer covering such areas a
transportation, space, medical and consumer issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine
"On the morning of October 2, 2019, N93012 ("Nine-O-Nine") crashed
shortly after taking off from KBDL (Bradley International Airport).
There were multiple injuries reported in the crash and the airport was
shut down after the accident."

https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/hc-br-windsor-locks-bradley-international-airport-plane-crash-20191002-jfkph65krrfhxlrlb3eehksdiu-story.html#flightPageActivityLog

I had seen the 909 on Friday.
a425couple
2019-10-02 16:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by a425couple
from
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vintage-b-17-plane-crashes-erupts-flames-bradley-international-airport-n1061161
Vintage B-17 plane crashes, erupts into flames at Bradley
International Airport near Hartford
The airport is playing host this week to a show of World War II-era planes.
(How many of them are still around and flying?
One visits up here in Pacific NW at least once a year
for celebrations and fund raising.))
------------------
Post by Jim Wilkins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine
"On the morning of October 2, 2019, N93012 ("Nine-O-Nine") crashed
shortly after taking off from KBDL (Bradley International Airport).
There were multiple injuries reported in the crash and the airport was
shut down after the accident."
https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/hc-br-windsor-locks-bradley-international-airport-plane-crash-20191002-jfkph65krrfhxlrlb3eehksdiu-story.html#flightPageActivityLog
I had seen the 909 on Friday.
Sad!
Sad day.
As to my question of 'how many?'
actually quite a few:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortresses
"Today, 47 planes survive in complete form, 11 of which are airworthy"
Jim Wilkins
2019-10-02 19:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by a425couple
from
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vintage-b-17-plane-crashes-erupts-flames-bradley-international-airport-n1061161
Vintage B-17 plane crashes, erupts into flames at Bradley
International Airport near Hartford
The airport is playing host this week to a show of World War
II-era
planes.
(How many of them are still around and flying?
One visits up here in Pacific NW at least once a year
for celebrations and fund raising.))
------------------
Post by Jim Wilkins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine
"On the morning of October 2, 2019, N93012 ("Nine-O-Nine") crashed
shortly after taking off from KBDL (Bradley International Airport).
There were multiple injuries reported in the crash and the airport was
shut down after the accident."
https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/hc-br-windsor-locks-bradley-international-airport-plane-crash-20191002-jfkph65krrfhxlrlb3eehksdiu-story.html#flightPageActivityLog
I had seen the 909 on Friday.
Sad!
Sad day.
As to my question of 'how many?'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortresses
"Today, 47 planes survive in complete form, 11 of which are
airworthy"
The 909 recovered from 3 nuclear tests and several previous crashes.
https://www.nnss.gov/docs/fact_sheets/DOENV_777.pdf
Jim Wilkins
2019-10-02 22:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by a425couple
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by a425couple
from
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vintage-b-17-plane-crashes-erupts-flames-bradley-international-airport-n1061161
Vintage B-17 plane crashes, erupts into flames at Bradley
International Airport near Hartford
The airport is playing host this week to a show of World War
II-era
planes.
(How many of them are still around and flying?
One visits up here in Pacific NW at least once a year
for celebrations and fund raising.))
------------------
Post by Jim Wilkins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine
"On the morning of October 2, 2019, N93012 ("Nine-O-Nine") crashed
shortly after taking off from KBDL (Bradley International
Airport).
There were multiple injuries reported in the crash and the airport was
shut down after the accident."
https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/hc-br-windsor-locks-bradley-international-airport-plane-crash-20191002-jfkph65krrfhxlrlb3eehksdiu-story.html#flightPageActivityLog
I had seen the 909 on Friday.
Sad!
Sad day.
As to my question of 'how many?'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortresses
"Today, 47 planes survive in complete form, 11 of which are
airworthy"
The 909 recovered from 3 nuclear tests and several previous crashes.
https://www.nnss.gov/docs/fact_sheets/DOENV_777.pdf
The evening news reported 7 dead. Rest in peace.

The plane apparently crashed into a deicing fluid tank and burned
almost completely, except one outer wing and the tail section. A B-17
is difficult get out of, especially from the cockpit if the front
hatch underneath is jammed. The catwalk across the bomb bay is very
narrow between the inner bomb racks and dummy bombs block the spaces
outside it.
Scott Kozel
2019-10-03 01:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by a425couple
from
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vintage-b-17-plane-crashes-erupts-flames-bradley-international-airport-n1061161
Vintage B-17 plane crashes, erupts into flames at Bradley
International Airport near Hartford
The airport is playing host this week to a show of World War II-era planes.
(How many of them are still around and flying?
One visits up here in Pacific NW at least once a year
for celebrations and fund raising.))
Smoke plume seen at Hartford area airport after vintage plane crash
OCT. 2, 201903:37
Oct. 2, 2019, 7:36 AM PDT / Updated Oct. 2, 2019, 7:55 AM PDT
By David K. Li and Jay Blackman
A vintage World War II plane crashed and erupted into flames on
Wednesday morning at Bradley International Airport, just outside of
Hartford, Connecticut, authorities said.
"We can confirm that there was an accident involving a Collings
Foundation World War II aircraft this morning at Bradley Airport,"
according to an airport statement.
"We have an active fire and rescue operation underway. The airport
is closed. We will issue further updates as information becomes
available," the Bradley airport statement said.
A Boeing B-17 used by the U.S. Air Force during World War IIA Boeing
B-17 used by the U.S. Air Force during World War II.Universal Images
Group via Getty Images
The FAA said the craft was a Boeing B-17 and it went down at the end
of Runway 6 at about 10 a.m. It was not immediately known how many
people were on board.
The International Association of Fire Fighters Local S15, the union
representing nearby first responders, tweeted a picture of black
smoke hovering over the airport with the message: "Our crews are
operating at an aircraft crash at Bradley airport."
The airport is playing host this week to a show of vintage World War
II craft.
The Boeing B-17 was once dubbed the "Flying Fortress" and played a
key role for Allied forces in Europe.
This is a developing story, please check back here for updates.
Image: David K. Li
David K. Li
David K. Li is a breaking news reporter for NBC News.
Jay Blackman
Jay Blackman is an NBC News producer covering such areas a
transportation, space, medical and consumer issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine
"On the morning of October 2, 2019, N93012 ("Nine-O-Nine") crashed
shortly after taking off from KBDL (Bradley International Airport).
There were multiple injuries reported in the crash and the airport was
shut down after the accident."
https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/hc-br-windsor-locks-bradley-international-airport-plane-crash-20191002-jfkph65krrfhxlrlb3eehksdiu-story.html#flightPageActivityLog
I had seen the 909 on Friday.
Very sad, I have seen it a number of times, and got a ride on it in 2015
when the Collings Foundation was visiting Chesterfield County Airport
near Richmond, VA.

Was this a flight with paying passengers?
e***@gmail.com
2019-10-03 13:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Kozel
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by a425couple
from
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vintage-b-17-plane-crashes-erupts-flames-bradley-international-airport-n1061161
Vintage B-17 plane crashes, erupts into flames at Bradley
International Airport near Hartford
The airport is playing host this week to a show of World War II-era planes.
(How many of them are still around and flying?
One visits up here in Pacific NW at least once a year
for celebrations and fund raising.))
Smoke plume seen at Hartford area airport after vintage plane crash
OCT. 2, 201903:37
Oct. 2, 2019, 7:36 AM PDT / Updated Oct. 2, 2019, 7:55 AM PDT
By David K. Li and Jay Blackman
A vintage World War II plane crashed and erupted into flames on
Wednesday morning at Bradley International Airport, just outside of
Hartford, Connecticut, authorities said.
"We can confirm that there was an accident involving a Collings
Foundation World War II aircraft this morning at Bradley Airport,"
according to an airport statement.
"We have an active fire and rescue operation underway. The airport
is closed. We will issue further updates as information becomes
available," the Bradley airport statement said.
A Boeing B-17 used by the U.S. Air Force during World War IIA Boeing
B-17 used by the U.S. Air Force during World War II.Universal Images
Group via Getty Images
The FAA said the craft was a Boeing B-17 and it went down at the end
of Runway 6 at about 10 a.m. It was not immediately known how many
people were on board.
The International Association of Fire Fighters Local S15, the union
representing nearby first responders, tweeted a picture of black
smoke hovering over the airport with the message: "Our crews are
operating at an aircraft crash at Bradley airport."
The airport is playing host this week to a show of vintage World War
II craft.
The Boeing B-17 was once dubbed the "Flying Fortress" and played a
key role for Allied forces in Europe.
This is a developing story, please check back here for updates.
Image: David K. Li
David K. Li
David K. Li is a breaking news reporter for NBC News.
Jay Blackman
Jay Blackman is an NBC News producer covering such areas a
transportation, space, medical and consumer issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine
"On the morning of October 2, 2019, N93012 ("Nine-O-Nine") crashed
shortly after taking off from KBDL (Bradley International Airport).
There were multiple injuries reported in the crash and the airport was
shut down after the accident."
https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/hc-br-windsor-locks-bradley-international-airport-plane-crash-20191002-jfkph65krrfhxlrlb3eehksdiu-story.html#flightPageActivityLog
I had seen the 909 on Friday.
Very sad, I have seen it a number of times, and got a ride on it in 2015
when the Collings Foundation was visiting Chesterfield County Airport
near Richmond, VA.
Was this a flight with paying passengers?
I've flown it too, and yes it was carrying passengers
Scott Kozel
2019-10-03 18:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Kozel
Very sad, I have seen it a number of times, and got a ride on it in 2015
when the Collings Foundation was visiting Chesterfield County Airport
near Richmond, VA.
Was this a flight with paying passengers?
I've flown it too, and yes it was carrying passengers
Later reports said 13 onboard and 7 fatalities. Sad indeed.

Reports were that engine #4 lost power, I wonder why they were not able to
maintain enough altitude, unless maybe #3 was losing power as well?

I wonder if the FAA is going to put a stop to the vintage aircraft flights,
at least for carrying passengers, and I have heard others mention that in the
last few years.

There was that Ju 52 crash last year --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Ju-Air_Junkers_Ju_52_crash

I see that Nine-O-Nine was involved in two previous vintage flight crashes, and
was repairable --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine#Civilian_crashes

We had to sign a liability waiver when I flew on Nine-0-Nine in 2015.

I can treasure the fact that I got to fly on the B-17, B-24 and B-25 of Collings
Foundation, just in the last few years.

I have wanted to continue taking a flight every few years or so, but I may
rethink that and consider that there may be more risks than I thought.

I was reassured by the fact that the B-17 and B-24 have 4 engines, and the
fact that normally the worst problem that they would have is the loss of one
engine, which should be manageable on a short flight like that.

I knew what the risks would be if a B-25 engine failed, as maintaining
control on a 2-engine plane is far more dicey if they lose one.

I hadn't yet spent the bucks to ride in the P-51, though! That is about
$2,300 for 30 minutes, and it would be the experience of a lifetime.

But after this I would need to think carefully about whether I would fly
in a 1-engine vintage aircraft.
Jim Wilkins
2019-10-03 20:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Kozel
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Kozel
Very sad, I have seen it a number of times, and got a ride on it in 2015
when the Collings Foundation was visiting Chesterfield County Airport
near Richmond, VA.
Was this a flight with paying passengers?
I've flown it too, and yes it was carrying passengers
Later reports said 13 onboard and 7 fatalities. Sad indeed.
Reports were that engine #4 lost power, I wonder why they were not able to
maintain enough altitude, unless maybe #3 was losing power as well?
I wonder if the FAA is going to put a stop to the vintage aircraft flights,
at least for carrying passengers, and I have heard others mention that in the
last few years.
There was that Ju 52 crash last year --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Ju-Air_Junkers_Ju_52_crash
I see that Nine-O-Nine was involved in two previous vintage flight crashes, and
was repairable --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine#Civilian_crashes
We had to sign a liability waiver when I flew on Nine-0-Nine in 2015.
I can treasure the fact that I got to fly on the B-17, B-24 and B-25 of Collings
Foundation, just in the last few years.
I have wanted to continue taking a flight every few years or so, but I may
rethink that and consider that there may be more risks than I
thought.
I was reassured by the fact that the B-17 and B-24 have 4 engines, and the
fact that normally the worst problem that they would have is the loss of one
engine, which should be manageable on a short flight like that.
I knew what the risks would be if a B-25 engine failed, as
maintaining
control on a 2-engine plane is far more dicey if they lose one.
I hadn't yet spent the bucks to ride in the P-51, though! That is about
$2,300 for 30 minutes, and it would be the experience of a lifetime.
But after this I would need to think carefully about whether I would fly
in a 1-engine vintage aircraft.
I flew in their Stearman a few years ago. They didn't ask if I knew
how, so I didn't have to tell them I had 0 hours.

I proved to myself I could turn smoothly and maintain heading and
altitude, and the bored pilot spent the time on his cell phone.
Scott Kozel
2019-10-03 20:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Scott Kozel
I hadn't yet spent the bucks to ride in the P-51, though! That is about
$2,300 for 30 minutes, and it would be the experience of a lifetime.
But after this I would need to think carefully about whether I would fly
in a 1-engine vintage aircraft.
I flew in their Stearman a few years ago. They didn't ask if I knew
how, so I didn't have to tell them I had 0 hours.
I proved to myself I could turn smoothly and maintain heading and
altitude, and the bored pilot spent the time on his cell phone.
The P-51 flight is billed as "P-51 flight training". I asked the pilot and
he said that it all depends on the person, some go along for the ride only,
some can do a few basic flight functions, and some can do a lot of flight
functions. I myself am not a pilot.
Jim Wilkins
2019-10-03 21:48:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Kozel
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Scott Kozel
I hadn't yet spent the bucks to ride in the P-51, though! That is about
$2,300 for 30 minutes, and it would be the experience of a
lifetime.
But after this I would need to think carefully about whether I would fly
in a 1-engine vintage aircraft.
I flew in their Stearman a few years ago. They didn't ask if I knew
how, so I didn't have to tell them I had 0 hours.
I proved to myself I could turn smoothly and maintain heading and
altitude, and the bored pilot spent the time on his cell phone.
The P-51 flight is billed as "P-51 flight training". I asked the pilot and
he said that it all depends on the person, some go along for the ride only,
some can do a few basic flight functions, and some can do a lot of flight
functions. I myself am not a pilot.
As a kid in the 50's I closely followed the advances at Edwards AFB
but I saw myself there as an engineer or scientist, not a pilot. I
have the eyesight to fix instruments.
a425couple
2019-10-04 16:28:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Kozel
Post by Scott Kozel
Very sad, I have seen it a number of times, and got a ride on it in 2015
We had to sign a liability waiver when I flew on Nine-0-Nine in 2015.
I am deeply involved in auto racing.
Sadly, in the USA, signing a "liability waiver" means almost
nothing. The organizations, through their insurance companies
will pay out.
a425couple
2019-10-04 16:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by Scott Kozel
Post by Scott Kozel
Very sad, I have seen it a number of times, and got a ride on it in 2015
We had to sign a liability waiver when I flew on Nine-0-Nine in 2015.
I am deeply involved in auto racing.
Sadly, in the USA, signing a "liability waiver" means almost
nothing.  The organizations, through their insurance companies
will pay out.
additional from 2015
lawsuits do
indeed have an impact on the entire structure of
USA auto racing.

I think the most recent one with major effects on us is:
$4.5 million awarded in Porsche Carrera GT case - Autoblog
www.autoblog.com/.../4-5-million-awarded-in-porsche-ca...
Autoblog.com
Oct 24, 2007 - Tracy Rudl, the wife of passenger Corey Rudl, filed a lawsuit
claiming ... Ferrari driver, 8% from Porsche, 41% from California Speedway
and ...
or also at:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/columns/legal-files/2108-carrera-gt-crash-settled-for-4-5-million

In short, more or less, one quite high income & rich (Rudl) guy was
thinking about buying a very fast Porsche from another guy, who took
him for a ride at a track day at Cal Speedway.
A Ferrari was waved out onto track, everything goes FUBAR.
High income guy dies, wife wants a high income!!!!
Lots of people (or our insurance companies) have to kick in 4.5 million!
One possible moral, do not let rich guys near the race track!!!

http://www.syracuse.com/crime/index.ssf/2015/06/fulton_racetrack_and_driver_must_pay_635000_to_dewitt_man_injured_in_pit_area.html
Fulton racetrack and driver must pay $635,000 to DeWitt
man injured in pit area.
rick Knight, 75, was in the pit area of the racetrack, looking at the
schedule of upcoming races, when he was struck by a race car in reverse,
said his lawyer, Timothy Murphy.
Knight, who raced himself decades ago, was at the track watching his son
race. He had signed a waiver as part of his ticket allowing him access
to the pit area. But state Supreme Court Justice Donald Greenwood ruled
that the waiver did not apply to spectators, but only to racers who
assumed the dangers of racing.

also
A man successfully sued Cortland County's Skyline Raceway after signing
a pit waiver,
then later falling off the side of the bleachers after suffering a heart
attack.
A judge in that case ruled that the waiver didn't keep the racetrack
from being sued
over not having railings on the bleachers. The case settled out of court.
Scott Kozel
2019-10-05 02:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by Scott Kozel
We had to sign a liability waiver when I flew on Nine-0-Nine in 2015.
I am deeply involved in auto racing.
Sadly, in the USA, signing a "liability waiver" means almost
nothing. The organizations, through their insurance companies
will pay out.
Depends on the state. If you enter into a contract without duress, and
the actions that you are waiving are clearly spelled out in the contract,
and there is no overriding government interest, and there were no criminal
actions in the event, then you may have no standing in a lawsuit. Again
it depends on the state.

My general policy is to refuse to enter into any liability waiver contract
that spells out that I am releasing them from liability even when the injury
was caused by their negligence. Such contracts are common in high risk
activities.

Collings Foundation did not go that far in the contract, and what tipped the
balance for me is that their employees on the plane are well trained and
experienced in piloting these aircraft, and that they are accepting the same
risk that I am. And of course I wanted to fly on the planes, and they are
short flights of about 30 minutes

The pilot and co-pilot were among those lost, and they were 75 and 71 years
old respectively, and that age surprises me somewhat, although I am not far
behind (but not a pilot or lawyer!).

Jim Wilkins
2019-10-04 17:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Kozel
...
Very sad, I have seen it a number of times, and got a ride on it in 2015
when the Collings Foundation was visiting Chesterfield County
Airport
near Richmond, VA.
Was this a flight with paying passengers?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/nyregion/bradley-airport-plane-crash-victims.html
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