Is this photograph a forgery ?

[ibm]

Is this photograph a forgery ?

The photograph is real.
The text is fiction.
Bush is wearing no more than what he was entitled ( or even
ordered to ).

IBM


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[.***@..]

Post by ibm

Is this photograph a forgery ?

The photograph is real.
The text is fiction.
Bush is wearing no more than what he was entitled ( or even
ordered to ).
IBM

I like how you can make a statement and not back it up, like we're
supposed to go "Oh, gee, thanks for correcting that for us!" How about
some further information about what you think he's wearing and why he
earned it...

This story first appeared on AWOLBush and had more details. Bush
didn't earn it, he probably didn't even know what it was.

http://www.awolbush.com/awards.asp

[Ian MacLure]

Post by .***@..

Post by ibm

Is this photograph a forgery ?

The photograph is real.
The text is fiction.
Bush is wearing no more than what he was entitled ( or even
ordered to ).
IBM

I like how you can make a statement and not back it up, like we're
supposed to go "Oh, gee, thanks for correcting that for us!" How about
some further information about what you think he's wearing and why he
earned it...

This has been explained by others in this news group cat a clue
why dontcha.

Post by .***@..
This story first appeared on AWOLBush and had more details. Bush
didn't earn it, he probably didn't even know what it was.

Hogwash

Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
You wear them while assigned to the unit.
There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the citation
is still worn by everybody in the unit.
Them's the rules.

IBM

_______________________________________________________________________________
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<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Bill McClain]

Post by Ian MacLure
Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
You wear them while assigned to the unit.
There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the citation
is still worn by everybody in the unit.
Them's the rules.
IBM

Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

[Ed Rasimus]

Post by Bill McClain

Post by Ian MacLure
Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
You wear them while assigned to the unit.
There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the citation
is still worn by everybody in the unit.
Them's the rules.
IBM

Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

Here's a brief summary of the fourragere and the Marine unit that
wears it: http://kilo35usmc.org/commem/fourragere.htm

And, once again for the record, the two ribbons that are shown in the
official photo (that's the one taken for the individual's personnel
file) are the AFOUA (Air Force Outstanding Unit Award) and the SAEMB
(Small Arms Expert Marsmanship Badge).

As a member of the unit, Bush would wear the AFOUA and as an aircrew
member there's a very high probability that he qualified as expert at
least once during his annual small arms training.

It is (as has been previously pointed out) unusual that he isn't
wearing the National Defense Service Medal which all service members
were authorized.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[BigRedWingsFan]

"Ed Rasimus" <***@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On 13 Sep 2004 15:12:30 -0700, ***@operamail.com (Bill McClain)
: wrote:
:
: >Ian MacLure <***@svpal.org> wrote in message
: >>
: >> Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
: >> You wear them while assigned to the unit.
: >> There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
: >> Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
: >> Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the
citation
: >> is still worn by everybody in the unit.
: >> Them's the rules.
: >>
: >> IBM
: >
: >Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
: >unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
: >World War I?
:
: Here's a brief summary of the fourragere and the Marine unit that
: wears it: http://kilo35usmc.org/commem/fourragere.htm
:
: And, once again for the record, the two ribbons that are shown in the
: official photo (that's the one taken for the individual's personnel
: file) are the AFOUA (Air Force Outstanding Unit Award) and the SAEMB
: (Small Arms Expert Marsmanship Badge).
:
: As a member of the unit, Bush would wear the AFOUA and as an aircrew
: member there's a very high probability that he qualified as expert at
: least once during his annual small arms training.
:
: It is (as has been previously pointed out) unusual that he isn't
: wearing the National Defense Service Medal which all service members
: were authorized.

Not for NG/USAR members prior to 2Aug90 whose only active duty periods were
short tours for training. We had some PRARNG guys in BCT in 1973 who did
not receive them and your comment made the light come on. Check out AR
600-8-22, paragraph 2-10.

HTH,

Marty

:
:
: Ed Rasimus
: Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
: "When Thunder Rolled"
: "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
: Both from Smithsonian Books
: ***www.thunderchief.org

[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

Post by Ed Rasimus
It is (as has been previously pointed out) unusual that he isn't
wearing the National Defense Service Medal which all service members
were authorized.

Hmmm. I dunno about that.
The ANG guys I knew at Lowry were not authorized the NDSM,
since they had not enlisted for active duty during wartime.
The same was true of draftees; no NDSM.

[matheson31]

GWB should have been authorized the NSDM as he was on active duty at least
53 weeks for pilot training.

National Defense Service Medal ceased to be authorized 15 Aug. 1974. Anyone
who entered the service after that date was not authorized to wear it.
Draftees were authorized to wear it, National Guard or Reserves would also
have been authorized (if they did any active service prior to 15 Aug. 1974).

The NDSM was re-authorized for Desert Shield (not sure of the exact date)
sometime @ Sept.1990. I was a Reservist at the time, but because I served
two different active duty tours between Oct 1990 and Aug 1991 I was
authorized two additional service stars.

Les Matheson
F-4C(WW)/D/E/G(WW), AC-130A, MC-130E WSO/EWO (ret)

Post by Dweezil Dwarftosser

Post by Ed Rasimus
It is (as has been previously pointed out) unusual that he isn't
wearing the National Defense Service Medal which all service members
were authorized.

Hmmm. I dunno about that.
The ANG guys I knew at Lowry were not authorized the NDSM,
since they had not enlisted for active duty during wartime.
The same was true of draftees; no NDSM.

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[Tex Houston]

Post by matheson31
GWB should have been authorized the NSDM as he was on active duty at least
53 weeks for pilot training.
National Defense Service Medal ceased to be authorized 15 Aug. 1974.
Anyone
who entered the service after that date was not authorized to wear it.
Draftees were authorized to wear it, National Guard or Reserves would also
have been authorized (if they did any active service prior to 15 Aug. 1974).
The NDSM was re-authorized for Desert Shield (not sure of the exact date)
two different active duty tours between Oct 1990 and Aug 1991 I was
authorized two additional service stars.
Les Matheson
F-4C(WW)/D/E/G(WW), AC-130A, MC-130E WSO/EWO (ret)

USAF Rules:

This medal was authorized by Executive Order 10448, April 22, 1953, and
amended by Executive Order 11256, Jan. 11, 1966. It is awarded for honorable
active military service as a member of the Armed Forces of the United States
including the Coast Guard, between June 27, 1950 and July 27, 1954, (Korean
War Period), between January 1, 1961 and August 14, 1974, (Vietnam War
Period), between 2 August 1990 to 30 November 1995 (Operations DESERT
SHIELD/STORM Period), and currently from 11 September 2001 to a date to be
determined (Terrorism Attacks on the US).

The medal was designed by the Army of Heraldic Section. The obverse shows
the American bald eagle, perched on a sword and palm. Above this , in a
semicircle, is the inscription "National Defense." The reverse shows a
shield, as it appears in the Great Scal of the United States; it is half
encircled below with an oak leaf to left an laurel spray to the right,
knotted in the center.

The ribbon has a wide yellow stripe in the center, flanked by narrow stripes
of red, white, blue, white, wide red stripes.

Authorized Device: Service Star, Service members who earned the medal during
the first qualifying period and who again became entitled to the medal wear
a bronze star on the ribbon to denote the second award of the medal.

Tex

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by Tex Houston

Post by matheson31
GWB should have been authorized the NSDM as he was on active duty at least
53 weeks for pilot training.
National Defense Service Medal ceased to be authorized 15 Aug. 1974.
Anyone
who entered the service after that date was not authorized to wear it.
Draftees were authorized to wear it, National Guard or Reserves would also
have been authorized (if they did any active service prior to 15 Aug. 1974).
The NDSM was re-authorized for Desert Shield (not sure of the exact date)
two different active duty tours between Oct 1990 and Aug 1991 I was
authorized two additional service stars.
Les Matheson
F-4C(WW)/D/E/G(WW), AC-130A, MC-130E WSO/EWO (ret)

This medal was authorized by Executive Order 10448, April 22, 1953, and
amended by Executive Order 11256, Jan. 11, 1966. It is awarded for honorable
active military service as a member of the Armed Forces of the United States
including the Coast Guard, between June 27, 1950 and July 27, 1954, (Korean
War Period), between January 1, 1961 and August 14, 1974, (Vietnam War
Period), between 2 August 1990 to 30 November 1995 (Operations DESERT
SHIELD/STORM Period), and currently from 11 September 2001 to a date to be
determined (Terrorism Attacks on the US).
The medal was designed by the Army of Heraldic Section. The obverse shows
the American bald eagle, perched on a sword and palm. Above this , in a
semicircle, is the inscription "National Defense." The reverse shows a
shield, as it appears in the Great Scal of the United States; it is half
encircled below with an oak leaf to left an laurel spray to the right,
knotted in the center.
The ribbon has a wide yellow stripe in the center, flanked by narrow stripes
of red, white, blue, white, wide red stripes.
Authorized Device: Service Star, Service members who earned the medal during
the first qualifying period and who again became entitled to the medal wear
a bronze star on the ribbon to denote the second award of the medal.

Yep. One award per designated period--not one per active duty stint during a
single period.

Brooks

Post by Tex Houston
Tex

[Roger Guilmain]

When Bush was in you were authorized t wear te NDSM only if you served
on active duty for "other than training"

Post by matheson31
GWB should have been authorized the NSDM as he was on active duty at least
53 weeks for pilot training.
National Defense Service Medal ceased to be authorized 15 Aug. 1974. Anyone
who entered the service after that date was not authorized to wear it.
Draftees were authorized to wear it, National Guard or Reserves would also
have been authorized (if they did any active service prior to 15 Aug. 1974).
The NDSM was re-authorized for Desert Shield (not sure of the exact date)
two different active duty tours between Oct 1990 and Aug 1991 I was
authorized two additional service stars.
Les Matheson
F-4C(WW)/D/E/G(WW), AC-130A, MC-130E WSO/EWO (ret)

Post by Dweezil Dwarftosser

Post by Ed Rasimus
It is (as has been previously pointed out) unusual that he isn't
wearing the National Defense Service Medal which all service members
were authorized.

Hmmm. I dunno about that.
The ANG guys I knew at Lowry were not authorized the NDSM,
since they had not enlisted for active duty during wartime.
The same was true of draftees; no NDSM.

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[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

Post by Roger Guilmain
When Bush was in you were authorized t wear te NDSM only if you served
on active duty for "other than training"

That's what I remember for the FANGs - their entire active duty
consisted of basic and almost a year in a Denver tech school with
thousands of lonely civilian women - then back home. It was an
aging teenager's dream come true. About the only medal those
guys might have deserved was one for broad-jumping!

(The rest of us, the active-duty guys, usually had to look forward
to at least one SE Asia/VN tour during the following three years...)

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by matheson31
GWB should have been authorized the NSDM as he was on active duty at least
53 weeks for pilot training.
National Defense Service Medal ceased to be authorized 15 Aug. 1974.

Anyone

Post by matheson31
who entered the service after that date was not authorized to wear it.
Draftees were authorized to wear it, National Guard or Reserves would also
have been authorized (if they did any active service prior to 15 Aug. 1974).

I don't think so. That active duty time had to be in Title 10 status, IIRC;
Bush's was not. Reservists and Guardsmen did not begin receiving the NDSM
for non-Title 10 service until the Gulf War.

Post by matheson31
The NDSM was re-authorized for Desert Shield (not sure of the exact date)
two different active duty tours between Oct 1990 and Aug 1991 I was
authorized two additional service stars.

Every serving reservist at that time received the NDSM, or a star if he was
an active duty Vietnam era vet; serving on active duty during the period was
not required. How did you get two service stars for the same "conflict"? You
might want to check up on the regs for the NDSM--it sounds like your
personnel folks may have been more giving than they should have been.

Brooks

Post by matheson31
Les Matheson
F-4C(WW)/D/E/G(WW), AC-130A, MC-130E WSO/EWO (ret)

Post by Dweezil Dwarftosser

Post by Ed Rasimus
It is (as has been previously pointed out) unusual that he isn't
wearing the National Defense Service Medal which all service members
were authorized.

Hmmm. I dunno about that.
The ANG guys I knew at Lowry were not authorized the NDSM,
since they had not enlisted for active duty during wartime.
The same was true of draftees; no NDSM.

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Andrew Chaplin]

Post by Bill McClain

Post by Ian MacLure
Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
You wear them while assigned to the unit.
There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the citation
is still worn by everybody in the unit.
Them's the rules.
IBM

Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

The fourragère of the Fifth Marines?
http://kilo35usmc.org/commem/fourragere.htm
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Howard Berkowitz]

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Bill McClain

Post by Ian MacLure
Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
You wear them while assigned to the unit.
There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the citation
is still worn by everybody in the unit.
Them's the rules.
IBM

Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

The fourragère of the Fifth Marines?
http://kilo35usmc.org/commem/fourragere.htm
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Ooops. Yes, 5th,

[Roger Guilmain]

Ian is partly correct. A unit and the individuals who were in the unit
during he period the award was earned earn the award. That is why those
who served when the award was given may always wear the award and all
members of the unit may only wear it when assigned to the unit.

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Bill McClain

Post by Ian MacLure
Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
You wear them while assigned to the unit.
There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the citation
is still worn by everybody in the unit.
Them's the rules.
IBM

Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

The fourragère of the Fifth Marines?
http://kilo35usmc.org/commem/fourragere.htm
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Jeff Crowell]

Post by Bill McClain
Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

Would that be the Pogey Bait Sixth?


Jeff
(whose "knowledge" of this is only from reading Uris's _Battle_Cry_)

[Leanne]

Post by Jeff Crowell

Post by Bill McClain
Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

Would that be the Pogey Bait Sixth?

Fifth and sixth regiments wear the pogey rope. I had an uncle in the fifth
marines when it was awarded.

http://members.tripod.com/~AdeltM/pagetwo.html

http://www.scuttlebuttsmallchow.com/4brgchr5a.html

http://homepage.mac.com/lexl/iblog/C744401703/E347965505/

Leanne
MGySgt, USMC, ret

[Guhor]

When I was with the 3rd Inf Div (75 - 78), we wore an award from WW I, can
not remember its name
but it was a rope of some type.

Post by Bill McClain

Post by Ian MacLure
Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
You wear them while assigned to the unit.
There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the citation
is still worn by everybody in the unit.
Them's the rules.
IBM

Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by Guhor
When I was with the 3rd Inf Div (75 - 78), we wore an award from WW I,

can

Post by Guhor
not remember its name
but it was a rope of some type.

A fourragere. And IIRC you wore it because it was awarded for the same
action that yielded your division nickname: "Rock of the Marne". 3rd ID was
the unit that stopped the German thrust across the Marne River during the
late Spring of 1918's Ludendorff offensive.

Brooks

Post by Guhor

Post by Bill McClain

Post by Ian MacLure
Unit citations aren't earned by individuals.
You wear them while assigned to the unit.
There's a Canadian infantry unit that still wears the Presidential
Unit Citation for an action in the Korean War. There aren't any
Korean vets serving anywhere in the Canadian military but the citation
is still worn by everybody in the unit.
Them's the rules.
IBM

Ian, or any knowledgeable US Marines out there: Isn't there a USMC
unit that still wears a French decoration it earned in ...I think...
World War I?

[Mark Test]

Post by .***@..

Post by ibm

Is this photograph a forgery ?

The photograph is real.
The text is fiction.
Bush is wearing no more than what he was entitled ( or even
ordered to ).
IBM

I like how you can make a statement and not back it up, like we're
supposed to go "Oh, gee, thanks for correcting that for us!" How about
some further information about what you think he's wearing and why he
earned it...
This story first appeared on AWOLBush and had more details. Bush
didn't earn it, he probably didn't even know what it was.
http://www.awolbush.com/awards.asp

Gosh, I guess I should update my service
record ASAP, since I'm missing 1 Naval Unit Commendation
and 2 Meritorious Naval Unit Comms.....

Truth be said, it's not uncommon for awards to never be placed in
your service record, UNLESS you catch it and can get a YN or
PN to update your PG 4. All service members do make sure
personal awards get entered, nether of these two awards
were personal awards, so not surprised here.

It's funny how the photo doesn't show Bush wearing his
National Defense Service ribbon, or his markmanship
medal.......Also, he was missing his "get out of basic"
ribbon too, why wasn't that in his record!!!! Damnit!
we need a full Congressional committee NOW! The man's
record is hosed, there should be hell to pay! That's
how you lefties sound....here's a thought...serve or talk with
a veteran before jumping to these crazy conclusions.

Mark

[Bob Coe]

Post by Mark Test
...Also, he was missing his "get out of basic"
ribbon too, why wasn't that in his record!!!

In the early 70's there was no basic training ribbon, and the
National Defense was all you got. Then when the National Defense
ribbon went away in 75, they came out with the basic training
ribbon so the kids would have something to wear.

[ArtKramr]

Subject: Re: Is this photograph a forgery ?
Date: 9/12/2004 11:53 AM Pacific Standard Time

Post by Mark Test
...Also, he was missing his "get out of basic"
ribbon too, why wasn't that in his record!!!

In the early 70's there was no basic training ribbon, and the
National Defense was all you got. Then when the National Defense
ribbon went away in 75, they came out with the basic training
ribbon so the kids would have something to wear.

Actually my service record had one more award than I knew I had. It included a
battle star for the Battle of the Northern Appernines. I never realised I had
that battle star until I saw it on my service record on sparation.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Escher]

And if you stayed in long enough
you got the chance to wear both of them
as I did.

Bob E

Post by Bob Coe

Post by Mark Test
...Also, he was missing his "get out of basic"
ribbon too, why wasn't that in his record!!!

In the early 70's there was no basic training ribbon, and the
National Defense was all you got. Then when the National Defense
ribbon went away in 75, they came out with the basic training
ribbon so the kids would have something to wear.

[Mark Test]

Post by Bob Coe

Post by Mark Test
...Also, he was missing his "get out of basic"
ribbon too, why wasn't that in his record!!!

In the early 70's there was no basic training ribbon, and the
National Defense was all you got. Then when the National Defense
ribbon went away in 75, they came out with the basic training
ribbon so the kids would have something to wear.

Thanks for the info, learn something new every day.

[sanjian]

Post by Mark Test
Gosh, I guess I should update my service
record ASAP, since I'm missing 1 Naval Unit Commendation
and 2 Meritorious Naval Unit Comms.....
Truth be said, it's not uncommon for awards to never be placed in
your service record, UNLESS you catch it and can get a YN or
PN to update your PG 4. All service members do make sure
personal awards get entered, nether of these two awards
were personal awards, so not surprised here.

Your service record is your own responsiblity, Bub. As is your pay, and you
medical, and you leave... ever wonder why some of those admin weenies have
jobs?

[Mark Test]

Post by sanjian

Post by Mark Test
Gosh, I guess I should update my service
record ASAP, since I'm missing 1 Naval Unit Commendation
and 2 Meritorious Naval Unit Comms.....
Truth be said, it's not uncommon for awards to never be placed in
your service record, UNLESS you catch it and can get a YN or
PN to update your PG 4. All service members do make sure
personal awards get entered, nether of these two awards
were personal awards, so not surprised here.

Your service record is your own responsiblity, Bub. As is your pay, and you
medical, and you leave... ever wonder why some of those admin weenies have
jobs?

Yeah, sanjin and when we're not standing watches, conducting unreps,
air ops, sea and anchor details, shooting at the bad guys, working on
PQS, and trying to catch some sleep somewhere, then we have a choice,
liberty call or go make sure YN3 put that last unit award in our record.

We normally choose the first option. Like I said, most sailors do a good
job regarding personal awards, as for unit awards.....not so good, since
they
earn you no extra points on the advancement exam, or make you stand out
on a selection board.

But prior to your discharge you should verify all is in order, that is a
personal
responsibility for sure.

Mark

[sanjian]

Post by Mark Test

Post by sanjian
Your service record is your own responsiblity, Bub. As is your pay,
and you medical, and you leave... ever wonder why some of those
admin weenies have jobs?

Yeah, sanjin and when we're not standing watches, conducting unreps,
air ops, sea and anchor details, shooting at the bad guys, working on
PQS, and trying to catch some sleep somewhere, then we have a choice,
liberty call or go make sure YN3 put that last unit award in our record.

Don't forget propulsion plant drills, GQ, maintenance, bilge parties, field
day, sweepers, being stuck on the shitter for six hours from food poisoning,
training, collateral duties, and babysitting nubs.

At least we don't have many personnel inspections (of course, I was a snipe,
so that may explain the lack).

Post by Mark Test
We normally choose the first option. Like I said, most sailors do a
good job regarding personal awards, as for unit awards.....not so
good, since they
earn you no extra points on the advancement exam, or make you stand
out on a selection board.

Indeed. Two months after I'm out, and I'm still trying to figure out
whether I should have the Armed Forces Expiditionary Medal or not... I
guess that's a job for the BCNR.

Post by Mark Test
But prior to your discharge you should verify all is in order, that
is a personal
responsibility for sure.

Start well ahead of time. Especially if you separate on shore duty. It's
my exprience that PSA is not as responsive as a ship's Personnel division.
Granted, that was all two months I spent on shore duty while the Reagan was
sailing to San Diego.

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by Mark Test

Post by .***@..

Post by ibm

Is this photograph a forgery ?

The photograph is real.
The text is fiction.
Bush is wearing no more than what he was entitled ( or even
ordered to ).
IBM

I like how you can make a statement and not back it up, like we're
supposed to go "Oh, gee, thanks for correcting that for us!" How about
some further information about what you think he's wearing and why he
earned it...
This story first appeared on AWOLBush and had more details. Bush
didn't earn it, he probably didn't even know what it was.
http://www.awolbush.com/awards.asp

Gosh, I guess I should update my service
record ASAP, since I'm missing 1 Naval Unit Commendation
and 2 Meritorious Naval Unit Comms.....
Truth be said, it's not uncommon for awards to never be placed in
your service record, UNLESS you catch it and can get a YN or
PN to update your PG 4. All service members do make sure
personal awards get entered, nether of these two awards
were personal awards, so not surprised here.

Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that unit award
he was wearing. It would only be entered into his records if he was a member
of the unit during the period for which it was *awarded*; otherwise he would
only have worn it while assigned to that unit and have been required to
remove it upon leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his
records.

Brooks

<snip>

[Mark Test]

Post by Kevin Brooks
Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that unit award
he was wearing. It would only be entered into his records if he was a member
of the unit during the period for which it was *awarded*; otherwise he would
only have worn it while assigned to that unit and have been required to
remove it upon leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his
records.
Brooks

See, here I go and look at this with a "Naval" perspective. The Navy allows
you to wear your unit citations after thransfer from said unit.
PUC's, NUC's, MUC's, and Battle E's are examples....

Mark

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by Mark Test

Post by Kevin Brooks
Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that unit

award

Post by Kevin Brooks
he was wearing. It would only be entered into his records if he was a

member

Post by Kevin Brooks
of the unit during the period for which it was *awarded*; otherwise he

would

Post by Kevin Brooks
only have worn it while assigned to that unit and have been required to
remove it upon leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his
records.
Brooks

See, here I go and look at this with a "Naval" perspective. The Navy allows
you to wear your unit citations after thransfer from said unit.
PUC's, NUC's, MUC's, and Battle E's are examples....

But isn't that ONLY if you were assigned to that vessel when it won the
award? You get assigned to the USS Duckwaddle in 2000, which has a PUC
dating from, say, 1991 and ODS, and then when you later get reassigned to
shore duty in Iowa you would continue to wear that PUC? I don't think so.

Brooks

Post by Mark Test
Mark

[sanjian]

Post by Kevin Brooks

Post by Mark Test

Post by Kevin Brooks
Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that
unit award he was wearing. It would only be entered into his
records if he was a member of the unit during the period for which
it was *awarded*; otherwise he would only have worn it while
assigned to that unit and have been required to remove it upon
leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his records.
Brooks

See, here I go and look at this with a "Naval" perspective. The
Navy allows you to wear your unit citations after thransfer from
said unit. PUC's, NUC's, MUC's, and Battle E's are examples....

But isn't that ONLY if you were assigned to that vessel when it won
the award? You get assigned to the USS Duckwaddle in 2000, which has
a PUC dating from, say, 1991 and ODS, and then when you later get
reassigned to shore duty in Iowa you would continue to wear that PUC?
I don't think so.

You wouldn't wear the PUC at all, in that case, whether you're on the USS
Usedtafish, or not.

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by sanjian

Post by Kevin Brooks

Post by Mark Test

Post by Kevin Brooks
Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that
unit award he was wearing. It would only be entered into his
records if he was a member of the unit during the period for which
it was *awarded*; otherwise he would only have worn it while
assigned to that unit and have been required to remove it upon
leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his records.
Brooks

See, here I go and look at this with a "Naval" perspective. The
Navy allows you to wear your unit citations after thransfer from
said unit. PUC's, NUC's, MUC's, and Battle E's are examples....

But isn't that ONLY if you were assigned to that vessel when it won
the award? You get assigned to the USS Duckwaddle in 2000, which has
a PUC dating from, say, 1991 and ODS, and then when you later get
reassigned to shore duty in Iowa you would continue to wear that PUC?
I don't think so.

You wouldn't wear the PUC at all, in that case, whether you're on the USS
Usedtafish, or not.

That would be a difference between the Navy and the other services, then.
Unit awards are awarded to the unit, and subsequent unit members wear the
award for as long as they are part of that unit. I'd be surprised if the
Navy actually does it differently?

Brooks

[Joe Osman]

Post by Kevin Brooks

Post by sanjian

Post by Kevin Brooks

Post by Mark Test

Post by Kevin Brooks
Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that
unit award he was wearing. It would only be entered into his
records if he was a member of the unit during the period for which
it was *awarded*; otherwise he would only have worn it while
assigned to that unit and have been required to remove it upon
leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his records.
Brooks

See, here I go and look at this with a "Naval" perspective. The
Navy allows you to wear your unit citations after thransfer from
said unit. PUC's, NUC's, MUC's, and Battle E's are examples....

But isn't that ONLY if you were assigned to that vessel when it won
the award? You get assigned to the USS Duckwaddle in 2000, which has
a PUC dating from, say, 1991 and ODS, and then when you later get
reassigned to shore duty in Iowa you would continue to wear that PUC?
I don't think so.

You wouldn't wear the PUC at all, in that case, whether you're on the USS
Usedtafish, or not.

That would be a difference between the Navy and the other services, then.
Unit awards are awarded to the unit, and subsequent unit members wear the
award for as long as they are part of that unit. I'd be surprised if the
Navy actually does it differently?
Brooks

In the Navy and Marines subsequent unit members are not allowed to wear the
award. The only exception is the 5th and 6th Marine's fourrageres (which are
called "Pogey Ropes" by everybody else, pogey being the nautical term for
candy). The Navy and Marines used to believe that ribbons should really mean
something, but "ribbon creep" has caught up with them too. The US Army and
Air Force have been handing out way too many for quite a long time now.
Speaking of fourrageres, I'm surprised that I don't see more soldiers
wearing them. US Army units won a lot of them from France, Belgium and
Luxembourg in WWI and WWII. Does the Army still wear the unit ribbons on the
side opposite the individual ribbons?


Joe




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[sanjian]

Post by Joe Osman
In the Navy and Marines subsequent unit members are not allowed to
wear the award. The only exception is the 5th and 6th Marine's
fourrageres (which are called "Pogey Ropes" by everybody else, pogey
being the nautical term for candy). The Navy and Marines used to

Anymore, we call it geedunk as well.

Post by Joe Osman
believe that ribbons should really mean something, but "ribbon creep"
has caught up with them too. The US Army and Air Force have been
handing out way too many for quite a long time now. Speaking of

For the navy, it depends on who you are. It's been said the only thing a
snip gets awarded is 45/45, reduction in rate, and half month's pay for two
months. I've seen supply guys get NAMs for filling vending machines. If a
snipe dies fighting a fire, the chain of command will give him a letter of
commendation and say he was lucky to even get that for just doing his job.

[Mark Test]

Post by Kevin Brooks
But isn't that ONLY if you were assigned to that vessel when it won the
award? You get assigned to the USS Duckwaddle in 2000, which has a PUC
dating from, say, 1991 and ODS, and then when you later get reassigned to
shore duty in Iowa you would continue to wear that PUC? I don't think so.
Brooks

Yes, that's true. My point was that apparently in the Army and Air Force
when you transfer from the unit, you no longer wear any of their unit
awards.

I wear a Battle "E" from PELICAN (MHC-53) 'cause I was onbaord when
the ship got the award...I wear this ribbon forever, even though I've long
since transferred.

Mark

[Tex Houston]

Post by Mark Test

Post by Kevin Brooks
But isn't that ONLY if you were assigned to that vessel when it won the
award? You get assigned to the USS Duckwaddle in 2000, which has a PUC
dating from, say, 1991 and ODS, and then when you later get reassigned to
shore duty in Iowa you would continue to wear that PUC? I don't think so.
Brooks

Yes, that's true. My point was that apparently in the Army and Air Force
when you transfer from the unit, you no longer wear any of their unit
awards.
I wear a Battle "E" from PELICAN (MHC-53) 'cause I was onbaord when
the ship got the award...I wear this ribbon forever, even though I've long
since transferred.
Mark

If the individual was with the unit during the period of the award it
becomes his individual award and he may continue to wear it forever. For
USAF see http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/awardsAsp/decs.asp?Mode=Graphics .
If I recall correctly I could wear the Presidential Unit Citation and the
AFOUA with three oak leaf clusters and a combat "V". From the site cited...

An individual assigned or permanently attached to, and also present for duty
with, a unit in the action for which the Presidential Unit Citation is
awarded may wear the emblem as a permanent part of their uniform.
This isn't rocket science but some of you seem to be trying to make it so.

Tex

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by Mark Test

Post by Kevin Brooks
But isn't that ONLY if you were assigned to that vessel when it won the
award? You get assigned to the USS Duckwaddle in 2000, which has a PUC
dating from, say, 1991 and ODS, and then when you later get reassigned to
shore duty in Iowa you would continue to wear that PUC? I don't think so.
Brooks

Yes, that's true. My point was that apparently in the Army and Air Force
when you transfer from the unit, you no longer wear any of their unit
awards.

No, you only give up wearing the award if you were not in the unit *when*
the award was made. For example, Snuffy gets assigned to the 99th Mess Kit
Repair Battalion, which it so happens had won a MUC back in Korea for its
amazing 100% repair rate and the fact that the hinges on its products never
squeaked. That was fifty years ago, but Snuffy still wears the award while
he is assigned to that unit, above his right pocket with any other unit
awards. Finally the day comes when Snuffy gets reassigned to the dastardly
69th Mess Kit Repair Battalion in Lower Kumquat, a unit renowned for its
squeaky hinges and 12% successful repair rate. So Snuffy has to then remove
the MUC from his uniform, and no reference to it will appear in his record
jacket. But good news for Snuffy--the 69th makes an amazing turnaround and
wins the Superior Unit Award while he is assigned there. Guess what? Yep, he
gets to wear that SUA throughout the remainder of his career, even after he
PCS's to another unit, and it is shown in his record jacket--only because he
was assigned to the unit during the award period.

Post by Mark Test
I wear a Battle "E" from PELICAN (MHC-53) 'cause I was onbaord when
the ship got the award...I wear this ribbon forever, even though I've long
since transferred.

Exactly--see above. But had the vessel won a MUC or PUC before your
assignement to it, wouldn't you have worn that ribbon, but only while
assigned to that vessel?

Brooks

Post by Mark Test
Mark

[sanjian]

Post by Kevin Brooks

Post by Mark Test
I wear a Battle "E" from PELICAN (MHC-53) 'cause I was onbaord when
the ship got the award...I wear this ribbon forever, even though
I've long since transferred.

Exactly--see above. But had the vessel won a MUC or PUC before your
assignement to it, wouldn't you have worn that ribbon, but only while
assigned to that vessel?

You would not. The vessel has a "fruit salad" on the island, and a bunch of
colored letter E's (each one representing a different department or group of
departments) with hash marks below them to represent Battle E(fficiency)
awards, and those earned by the departments. The ship keeps the award, but
you don't, unless you were assigned during the period covered by the award
(ie, had the Truman won the Battle E in 2001, I would have recieved the
award as well, since I was stationed on it during the year covered, even
though I flew off in January).

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by sanjian

Post by Kevin Brooks

Post by Mark Test
I wear a Battle "E" from PELICAN (MHC-53) 'cause I was onbaord when
the ship got the award...I wear this ribbon forever, even though
I've long since transferred.

Exactly--see above. But had the vessel won a MUC or PUC before your
assignement to it, wouldn't you have worn that ribbon, but only while
assigned to that vessel?

You would not. The vessel has a "fruit salad" on the island, and a bunch of
colored letter E's (each one representing a different department or group of
departments) with hash marks below them to represent Battle E(fficiency)
awards, and those earned by the departments. The ship keeps the award, but
you don't, unless you were assigned during the period covered by the award
(ie, had the Truman won the Battle E in 2001, I would have recieved the
award as well, since I was stationed on it during the year covered, even
though I flew off in January).

Odd--that is different from the other services.

Brooks

[B2431]

Date: 9/13/2004 6:42 PM Central Daylight Time

Post by Kevin Brooks
But isn't that ONLY if you were assigned to that vessel when it won the
award? You get assigned to the USS Duckwaddle in 2000, which has a PUC
dating from, say, 1991 and ODS, and then when you later get reassigned to
shore duty in Iowa you would continue to wear that PUC? I don't think so.
Brooks

Yes, that's true. My point was that apparently in the Army and Air Force
when you transfer from the unit, you no longer wear any of their unit
awards.
I wear a Battle "E" from PELICAN (MHC-53) 'cause I was onbaord when
the ship got the award...I wear this ribbon forever, even though I've long
since transferred.
Mark

Actually both the Army and Air Force require you to wear unit ribbons earned
while you were assigned for the rest of your career.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Fred J. McCall]

"Mark Test" <***@the-i.net> wrote:

:Kevin Brooks" <***@notyahoo.com> wrote in message
:news:mfednVOqm8IeltjcRVn-***@adelphia.com...
:>
:> Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that unit award
:> he was wearing. It would only be entered into his records if he was a member
:> of the unit during the period for which it was *awarded*; otherwise he would
:> only have worn it while assigned to that unit and have been required to
:> remove it upon leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his
:> records.
:>
:See, here I go and look at this with a "Naval" perspective. The Navy allows
:you to wear your unit citations after thransfer from said unit.
:PUC's, NUC's, MUC's, and Battle E's are examples....

So does the Air Force, from what has been said. But you have to have
been assigned to the unit when it got the award. What is apparently
different, from what has been said, is that the Air Force has everyone
in the unit wear the award WHILE IN THE UNIT, whether they were
assigned there when it was awarded or not.

[Ian MacLure]

Fred J. McCall <***@earthlink.net> wrote in news:***@4ax.com:

[snip]

Post by Fred J. McCall
So does the Air Force, from what has been said. But you have to have
been assigned to the unit when it got the award. What is apparently
different, from what has been said, is that the Air Force has everyone
in the unit wear the award WHILE IN THE UNIT, whether they were
assigned there when it was awarded or not.

Showing up on parade without it would probably attract pointed
comment from the 1st Sgt or equivalent.

IBM

_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Mark Test]

Post by Fred J. McCall
:>
:> Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that unit award
:> he was wearing. It would only be entered into his records if he was a member
:> of the unit during the period for which it was *awarded*; otherwise he would
:> only have worn it while assigned to that unit and have been required to
:> remove it upon leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his
:> records.
:>
:See, here I go and look at this with a "Naval" perspective. The Navy allows
:you to wear your unit citations after thransfer from said unit.
:PUC's, NUC's, MUC's, and Battle E's are examples....
So does the Air Force, from what has been said. But you have to have
been assigned to the unit when it got the award. What is apparently
different, from what has been said, is that the Air Force has everyone
in the unit wear the award WHILE IN THE UNIT, whether they were
assigned there when it was awarded or not.

Well, that makes things damn confusing...here ya go kid wear this ribbon,
but when you transfer, you lose it! Whatever!

Mark

[s***@adelphia.net]

Post by Fred J. McCall
:>
:> Actually, his record jacket is probably correct in terms of that unit award
:> he was wearing. It would only be entered into his records if he was a member
:> of the unit during the period for which it was *awarded*; otherwise he would
:> only have worn it while assigned to that unit and have been required to
:> remove it upon leaving, and it would therefore have not been shown in his
:> records.
:>
:See, here I go and look at this with a "Naval" perspective. The Navy allows
:you to wear your unit citations after thransfer from said unit.
:PUC's, NUC's, MUC's, and Battle E's are examples....
So does the Air Force, from what has been said. But you have to have
been assigned to the unit when it got the award. What is apparently
different, from what has been said, is that the Air Force has everyone
in the unit wear the award WHILE IN THE UNIT, whether they were
assigned there when it was awarded or not.

Bush's ribbons are legit,only after earning pilot wings. Per Sgt.
Mimms A.F. Archives & United Press International.

Check it out @ http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040913-122231-6905r

Sgt.Randy

[Ed Rasimus]

Post by s***@adelphia.net
Bush's ribbons are legit,only after earning pilot wings. Per Sgt.
Mimms A.F. Archives & United Press International.
Sgt.Randy

Absolutely incorrect. There is no relationship between an aeronautical
rating and the AF Outstanding Unit Award or the Small Arms Expert
ribbon.

Get assigned to a unit which has an AFOUA and any rank or rating can
wear the ribbon. Qualify during any small arms training and any rank
or rating can wear the ribbon.

In fact, I can't think of any ribbon which is dependent upon
possession of an aero rating.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[s***@adelphia.net]

Post by Ed Rasimus

Post by s***@adelphia.net
Bush's ribbons are legit,only after earning pilot wings. Per Sgt.
Mimms A.F. Archives & United Press International.
Sgt.Randy

Absolutely incorrect. There is no relationship between an aeronautical
rating and the AF Outstanding Unit Award or the Small Arms Expert
ribbon.
Get assigned to a unit which has an AFOUA and any rank or rating can
wear the ribbon. Qualify during any small arms training and any rank
or rating can wear the ribbon.
In fact, I can't think of any ribbon which is dependent upon
possession of an aero rating.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No reason to get all testy there,"Old Flyboy". Just posting a site
that says it's legit w/ wings. Did you read what Mirns said?

I guess Tech. Sgt. Mirns @ Air Reserve Personel Center & AF history
office aren't as informed as you.

Sgt. Randy USMC 64 - 68
MASS-1,2,& 3

[Kevin Brooks]

Post by s***@adelphia.net

Post by Ed Rasimus

Post by s***@adelphia.net
Bush's ribbons are legit,only after earning pilot wings. Per Sgt.
Mimms A.F. Archives & United Press International.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040913-122231-6905r

Post by s***@adelphia.net

Post by Ed Rasimus

Post by s***@adelphia.net
Sgt.Randy

Absolutely incorrect. There is no relationship between an aeronautical
rating and the AF Outstanding Unit Award or the Small Arms Expert
ribbon.
Get assigned to a unit which has an AFOUA and any rank or rating can
wear the ribbon. Qualify during any small arms training and any rank
or rating can wear the ribbon.
In fact, I can't think of any ribbon which is dependent upon
possession of an aero rating.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----

Post by s***@adelphia.net
No reason to get all testy there,"Old Flyboy". Just posting a site
that says it's legit w/ wings. Did you read what Mirns said?
office aren't as informed as you.

It would be a mistake to assume that because that is his position and role
he always is correct. We had personnel section chiefs get things wrong, even
related to awards. Dan's outstanding website on Bush's military experience
includes an appended commentary from a USAR NCO who took him to task for a
very minor detail--and in the process he himself made the mistake of
assuming that Guard and Reserve policies are always the same (i.e., IIRC he
mentioned that *every* troop gets fourteen points for his annual training
period--ignoring the fact that for as long as I can remember, that would
only be true for federal reservists, since Guardsmen spent *fifteen* days at
AT compared to the USAR's fourteen). The idea that which awards should be
worn would be tied to ones "boo badge" status is pretty ridiculous, and I'd
bet dollars to donuts that Ed has it right and your vaunted TSG Mims made a
boo-boo.

Brooks

Post by s***@adelphia.net
Sgt. Randy USMC 64 - 68
MASS-1,2,& 3

[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

Post by s***@adelphia.net

Post by Ed Rasimus
Absolutely incorrect. There is no relationship between an aeronautical
rating and the AF Outstanding Unit Award or the Small Arms Expert
ribbon.

[ snip ]

Post by s***@adelphia.net
No reason to get all testy there,"Old Flyboy". Just posting a site
that says it's legit w/ wings. Did you read what Mirns said?
office aren't as informed as you.

Ed is correct - but the UPI reporter (Koprowski) sounds confused.
So is TSgt Mims; it's highly unlikely that a BMT unit would be
awarded an AFOUA.
To top it off, it was some WH spokesman (Duffy) that made the bonehead
statement about the ribbons being tied to wearing wings - NOT Mims.

That sure looks like a confused reporter to me.

[William Davenant]

Is this photograph a forgery ?
http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=276

Rather than waste your time with self-styled progressives (aka commies!),
read

http://www.nrbookservice.com/bookpage.asp?prod_cd=c6530

wd