Post by Rob ArndtThank you David for that practically useless information on the Me-264
history.
It was better than just a picture.
He indicated where the information came from.
Post by Rob ArndtAs "Amerika Bomber" that would have been the Me-264B model that was
never built- you know, the 6-engine version which later evolved into
the Me-264/6m... aka, Me-364..
Actually no, the original idea was the 4 engined version but that
proved inadequate.
We can start with the Me261 Adolfine, the ultra long range special
aircraft to fly the Olympic torch from Berlin to Tokyo direct. Proposed
to Hitler in 1936, who liked it, hence the name. Used the DB606, same
as the He177. First prototype first flew on 23 December 1940, the
third joined the test program in early 1943, it used the DB610, again the
same as the He177, it did a 10 hour flight on 16 April 1943 covering
2,796 miles. The V3 served in the Reconnaissance unit of the Luftwaffe
command, Aufkl.Gr.Ob.d.L, it had a crew of 7 a range of 6,830 miles
and a top speed of 385 mph. Span 88 feet 1.75 inches, length 54 feet
9.25 inches. It was largely a flying fuel tank, an attempt to fit defensive
armament was abandoned because of the cost in terms of range.
Post by Rob ArndtThe Me-264 from inception* was to be part of the America Mission that
was under Udet until his suicide in Nov 1941 which put Milch in
charge, afterwhich the first conference on the America Mission was
brought up in Feb 1942.
The Me264 started life as a private venture by Messerschmitt in 1940,
undoubtedly drawing on ideas from the Me261, but it was a much larger
aircraft, span 127 feet 7.5 inches, length 68 feet 7 inches, four 1,340 HP
Jumo 211J engines. The official go ahead seems to have been given in
1941 but it was a low priority project.
And it was aimed at America from the start, though clearly it was a
long range aircraft and could be used in other roles.
Post by Rob ArndtIt was Flugbaumeister Freibel (the air staff
engineer responsible for a/c development) that had stated that NONE of
the machines under development would have the capability of carrying
out that mission w/o development of air-to-air refueling.
So the Ta400, Ju290 and Me264, one result was the Ju390.
Post by Rob ArndtThat
included the Me-264 which at that time was hampered by workshop limits
and transferred temporarily to Dornier where problems persisted. Then
joined Weserflug which wanted to transfer management of the project to
S Germany and that was rebuked. Thus, the Me-264 as bomber was running
way behind schedule in 1942.
The first prototype first flight was in December 1942.
Post by Rob ArndtIn April 1942 Milch therefore ordered a complete evaluation of all
long-distance bomber aircraft projects (gee David the Me-264 was at
this point still a bomber project with nothing to do with convoy
protection, aka Condor work).
Condors did not do convoy protection, and the reality is the Luftwaffe
needed a long range maritime as well, the aircraft could obviously do
long range reconnaissance.
The fact Messerschmitt sold the idea as an America bomber, then
switched to the maritime role to sell it is not really surprising.
Post by Rob ArndtOn April 24th Oberstleutnant Edgar
Petersen, head of the Rechlin a/c test center went to Messerschmitt,
Augsburg to document and confirm that the Me-264 prototype was 90%
complete.
If that was the case the final 10% was a real problem.
Post by Rob ArndtThe same day Messerschmitt himself presented his personal
study on Atlantic Operations and suggested (key-word) that the Me-264
also have a secondary purpose of spying on Allied convoys and be used
as a maritime AS platform using modern bombs and missiles under
development.
In other words it was realised the aircraft had other uses, especially
as the He177 was having problems, don't want to buy our aircraft
to bomb America, buy it to bomb ships on the way to and from America.
Post by Rob ArndtMesserschmitt also issued a report that a 45 ton Me-264
would have a range of 13,000 km if fitted with 4x Jumo 211J engines or
14,000 km with 4x BMW 801 radials. The V-1 was looking good for a
first flight in Sept 42 followed by the V-2 and V-3 by winter.
This sounds like Messerchmitt's hopes.
Post by Rob ArndtThe RLM embraced Messerschmitt's projections because nuisance raids on
American cities would be of high propaganda value and morale boosters
to the German people. So Messerschmitt was allowed to step up the pace
of develoment accordingly.
Yet the first flight of the prototype took place 3 months later than
given in the above schedule.
Post by Rob ArndtHowever, the Fw-200 Condor and the He-177
also remained on a list of a/c that could be modified for longer-
ranges to hit the US which was part of Udet's original proposal before
his suicide.
That would be a rather big stretch unless the missions were one way.
Post by Rob ArndtThe minimum requirement was 12,000 km (the distance from
Brest to NY and return). 3000 km was added as fuel and technical
reserves with a minimum of 3.5 ton bomb load plus normal armor and
defensive armament. But Fw and Junkers (which had a proposal as well)
could not keep the weights down and proposed huge 100+ ton bombers
which would need future engines that were not yet in production. Even
if the DB 603 X 6 were available, it would take 2 years of developemnt
to fly the first a/c and that didn't happen.
The Ju390 came in at 73 tons maximum weight. The Bv238 came in
at around 100 tons.
The original Messerschmitt proposal was a 4,000 pound bomb load,
near doubling the load would have an inevitable effect on range. In
addition the original idea was for no defensive armament.
Post by Rob ArndtMesserschmitt was dealt another blow when it was discovered that his
projections would not be adequate to reach America and return- that he
hadn't the necessary reserves to return and in-flight German re-
fueling was not being developed to that degree (two a/c take-off to
the 3000 km point and then one refuels the other and turns back to
France).
Hence the modifications to the V2 prototype and the pitch for a
maritime role.
Post by Rob ArndtSo then Messerschmitt was ordered to lighten up the a/c with
a generic version submitted by the RLM technical center. This would
feature a normal non-presurized cockpit, proven engines in production,
and no bomb-aimer's position. It was thought that these measures would
allow under-capacity Messerschmitt to proceed faster and avoid
cancellation of the a/c altogether.
But it was not enough to give the required performance.
Post by Rob ArndtMeanwhile two other a/c were being considered for the job- the Bv-238
and Ju-390 derived from the 290.
What happened to the Ta400?
Post by Rob ArndtIn response, Messerschmitt now had to plan for development of a 6-
engine version of the Me-264 which could meet the demand for 15,000 km
range, 5 ton bombload, and 4 tons of added armament and armor!
The wingspan was increased to 141 feet 1 inches. The expected result
was an empty weight of 51,500 pounds, loaded 100,400, overloaded,
123,600 pounds, speed with GM-1 351 mph, range 9,315 miles, 8 crew.
To obtain the necessary fuel supply only 30% of the tanks were self
sealing.
Fitting GM-1 lowered the bomb load to a maximum of 6,615 pounds,
3 metric tons.
The maximum range was around 9,315 miles or 15,000 km but that was
with zero bomb load.
Still 4 engines, 1,700 HP BMW801E
Post by Rob ArndtBut due
to a 2 km run for t/o this version would have to use a jettisonable
undercarriage to get into the air. The heavier a/c was eliminated for
the AS role as it could not dive bomb, but would also have to hit NY
at night as horizontal bomber. Defensive armament also became a
problem, so then the idea of using parasite a/c smaller than a Me Bf
109 came into the studies.
Apparently the Me328.
Post by Rob ArndtThis in turn led to a complete re-evaulation of trans-Atlantic long-
1. The 4-engined Me-264 will proceed with the fastest possible
solution for operations against the US.
2. The necessary mid-air refueling procedure will probably be worked
out in 1942.
3. For distances up to 10000 km, the Ju-390 is best (heavier loads,
better armament, parasite fighters).
4. Investigations with the object of achieving a return to and from
America without refueling (6-engined Me-264) will be stepped up.
That seems to have translated to jet engine ideas or engines dedicated
to supercharging. Not 6 piston engines on the wings.
Post by Rob Arndt5. Use of the Ju-290 for distances up to 8000 km will be investigated
with a view to using the aircraft to refuel the 4-engine Me-264.
At this point
At this point? The project is already wandering as the technical
obstacles become obvious.
Post by Rob Arndtwe end-up with an endless cycle of revisions, more
competitors, Goering's ignorance of the entire Trans-Atlantic
missions, no air tankers developed from the Ju-290, and Doenitz's
influence with regard to protecting his U-boats in the N Atlantic,
which proposed using the Me-264 for unarmed recon or back to AS with
bombs and missiles. The parasite question also lingered on with
development of the Me-328 with multiple proposals that severely
complicated the entire Amerika Bomber program to the point of
uselessness in the critical 1942-44 timeframe.
The idea there would be an America bomber in 1942 is not going
to happen given these meetings were going on in early 1942, and
of course the first of the designs did not fly until the end of the year.
And it proved inadequate.
Similar for 1943, and then again for 1944, given the technical issues.
Post by Rob ArndtThe Me-264 itself was late and when evaluated by Baur was loaded with
a multitude of technical problems and aerodynamic problems (stability
and tail flutter). The only real solution for t/o was to use 6x RATO
units to reduce t/o length from 2.4 km down to 1.2 and to substitute
remote-controlled weapons for defense.
Six more things to go wrong.
Post by Rob ArndtAnd yet Messerschmitt and
Dornier combined could never have met the target production required
of at least 30-40 bombers a month, not even back in 1942 before the
entire German aviation industry was under round-the-clock bombing.
Messerschmitt could only attempt 6/mo max and so support for the a/c
began to wane.
So even if the designs could work, they could not be produced.
Post by Rob ArndtWith the first Me-264 completed and flown by Dec 23, 1942 and again in
March 1943 serious problems arose with the undercarriage.
Messerschmitt and undercarriage problems seem to go together.
Post by Rob ArndtThe unarmed
V-2 was also completed, but bombed in 1944
Looks like the V-2 was bombed before it flew, and in late 1943,
at that stage it had no armament or operational equipment.
Post by Rob Arndtas was the transferred V-1
(with radial engines fitted) on April 16, 1944; thus, the Me-264
program came to an end,
In June 1944 Karl-Otto Saur, head of the Jagerstab, wanted to go ahead
with the Me262 with the turbojet option.
Post by Rob Arndtonly to have the SS completely revise the
Amerika Bomber program in 1945 to hit NY with a single Wunderwaffe.
Under construction for the task were the He-274, Ju-488, and Ho XVIII
as well as Peenemunde's rocket craft from EMW, Sanger's study of the
Silbervogel still in progress at Lofer, Austria and a ton of projekt a/
c that in no way could be completed before May 1945. Aircraft also
considered were the Bv-222 and He-277 with Ju-390 diverted over to KG
200 and SS evacuation work.
Yet another project that seems more about keeping busy in case
the people are drafted to the front.
Post by Rob Arndt1) Luftwaffe Over America, Manfried Griehl, 2004, ISBN 0-7607-8697-6
2) Bombers of the Luftwaffe, Joachim Dressel and Manfried Griehl,
1994, ISBN 1-85409-140-9
3) Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Strategic Bombers 1935-1945, Dieter
Herwig and Heinz Rode, pgs 41-44, 2000, ISBN 1-85780-092-3
This would include the jet versions powered by 6x Jumo 018s or 028
turboprops and also looks at pusher configurations as well as the
Me-364.
In other words lots of paper projects.
Post by Rob Arndt* The Me-264 originated in March 1941 before the US was even in the
war but was still considered for a "nuisance bomber". Why do oyu think
it had a bomb bay to carry up to 5 tons of bombs? Or did you think
that was for leaflets???
Actually it was originated in 1940 as a private venture by Messerschmitt,
and was allowed to go ahead as part of the America bomber idea. The
trouble was the aircraft was not up to the task. Also the oxygen tanks
for the GM-1 system were stored in the bomb bay, reducing the bomb
load.
Post by Rob ArndtYou would think that David would have known that :)
You would have thought the private venture origins of the Me264
would have been reported.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
