Discussion:
Galland Brothers
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Rob Arndt
2010-04-28 16:50:49 UTC
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Adolf
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Adolf Galland is probably the most known Luftwaffe pilot of WWII. Not
because of number of his kills, but special kind of charisma , a
characteristic for all great aces. He was the youngest general grade
officer of either side in World War II, and at age 29, he was more
competent in aerial combat, strategy and tactics than many of the
experts nearly twice his age. As a fighter pilot he was credited with
104 aerial victories. He was also famous for making a lot of
modifications to his Bf 109 fighters. He enhanced their fire power,
installed better pilot armour and, a cockpit cigar lighter!

He was born in Westerholt, a small village in Westphalia on 19 March
1912. His father was an administrator of private lands and properties.
Adolf was the second son, after Fritz. His younger brothers were
Wilhelm and Paul. These two younger brothers followed Adolf into the
Luftwaffe fighter forces. However they were not as lucky in combat.
Paul (17 victories) was killed on 31 October 1943, mistakenly shot
down by another pilot of JG26. Wilhelm (54 victories, Knight's Cross)
was shot down a year later. Since childhood Adolf Galland was
fascinated by aviation. He started building model aircraft when he was
12 years old. When he was 16, he began glider flights. In 1933 Galland
realized a dream when he received his first pilot's license. During
training in 1935, he crashed in a Focke-Wulf Fw-44 biplane and he was
in a coma for three days. He had serious skull fractures, a broken
nose, and a partially blinded left eye from glass fragments. His
commander, Major Rheitel, an aviator from the First World War,
assisted him during his recovery and getting back into flying. He
returned to air duty, but a year later he crashed again, this time on
Arado Ar-68. Galland again spent a lot of time in the hospital.

In 1937 he volunteered to go with a group of German pilots for service
in the Spanish Civil War. In this group were other future aces like
Hannes Trautloft, Wilhelm Balthasar, Günther Lützow, Eduard Neumann
and Hajo Herrmann. They arrived in El Ferrol on 7 May 1937. Galland
became a squadron leader in the Legion Fighter Group, equipped with
Heinkel He-51 biplane fighters. Lützow led a squadron of the newest
Messerschmitt Bf 109Bs. Galland entered action over Brunete in July
1937. He flew over 300 missions as a leader and he was awarded the
Spanish Cross in Gold with Diamonds, only awarded 12 times in Spanish
history. In 1938 he returned to Germany. Having great experience, was
ordered to begin the organization of Luftwaffe ground attack units.

At the beginning of WW II, Galland flew in Poland in the Henschel Hs
123, until October 1, 1939, performing ground attack missions and
proving the dive-bombing concept. For his efforts Galland was awarded
by Iron Cross. Next, he was assigned to JG 27, commanded by Oberst Max
Ibel. During the French campaign Adolf Galland scored his first kills
on 12 May 1940, when he went with Gustav Rödel on a mission. Galland
shot down two "Hurricanes" from 87th Squadron in two sorties. He had
12 victories by 9 June 1940.

When "Battle of Britain" started, Galland was assigned to JG26
Schlageter as Gruppenkommandeur of III/JG26. His debut in that unit
was very successful: he shot down two fighters on his first mission.
On 18 July 1940, he was promoted to Major and a month later (on 22
August) he received the Ritterkreuz (Knights Cross) after his 17th
victory. During the "Battle of Britain" his score increased rapidly,
and on 25 September he was decorated with the Oak Leaves (for 40
kills) by Hitler. Galland also succeeded Gotthard Handrick as
Kommodore of JG26. On 1 November 1940, he scored his 50th victory and
was promoted to Oberstleutnant (lieutenant colonel). One month later
he became a full colonel.

Galland experienced being shot down himself on 21 June 1941, when JG26
was stationed at Pas de Calais. The Germans attacked Bristol
"Blenheim" bombers and Galland downed two of them. However, some
escorting "Spitfires" shot up his plane. He was forced to belly-land
in a field. This same day, after lunch, he went on his next sortie. On
that mission he shot down his number 70, but when following the
burning "Spitfire", he was bounced and shot up badly. His plane caught
fire, and he was wounded. He tried to bail out, but the canopy was
jammed. After a dramatic struggle with the canopy, he was able to bail
out at the last moment. His parachute opened just as he hit the
ground. He was bleeding from his head and arm and he had damaged his
ankle on landing. On 2 July 1941 Galland again was in trouble, but
that is another story. Please check the text: Adolf Galland and the
dramatic air combat July of 1941. On 9 August 1941 Galland 'welcomed'
the famous Douglas Bader, who was just shot down by JG26 fighters.

At the end of 1941 Galland become General der Jagdflieger ("commander
of fighter forces"), and went to Berlin. Gerhard Schoepfel became
Kommodore of Galland's beloved JG26. On 28 January 1942, Hitler
awarded him again, this time with the Brillanten (Diamonds). Galland
still was at the rank of Colonel, but in 1942 he was promoted to
General, then General Leutnant. He was enthusiastic about the new jet
fighter project, and he gave great support to the Me 262 program.
However, the protracted development time and Hitler's idea to turn the
aircraft into a bomber "Schwalbe" slowed the entrance of this
revolutionary fighter by a year.

In January of 1945 Galland and other officers (Lützow, Johannes,
Steinhoff) had a notorious confrontation with Göring over the
performance and future of the Fighter Arm. Galland was removed from
his position and even arrested and threatened with a court-martial.
Eventually he was allowed to organize a special jet unit using the Me
262. He created Jagdverband 44 a unit with most experienced pilots.
His 'recruiting' officer, Steinhoff, traveled to all of the major
bases, selecting pilots who wanted join to new adventure. Some very
famous pilots joined over a period of weeks: Gerhard Barkhorn, Walter
Krupinski, Heinz Bär , Erich Hohagen, Günther Lützow, Wilhelm Herget.

The newly organized unit flew several missions with varying success.
Some aircraft used the anti-bomber R4M rockets. During his first
attack with rockets Galland, with Walter Krupinski as a wingman,
attacked a group of American B-26 "Marauders". Galland's rocket attack
knocked down two of them.

In his last aerial combat in WWII, Adolf Galland took off on 26 April
1945. During an attack against Marauders his rockets would not fire,
so he had use the 30 mm cannons. His Me 262 was hit by return fire
from a rear gunner. The Allied bomber withstood Galland's fire. When
Galland turned to finish the bomber, he was surprised by a P-47D flown
by James Finnegan. Shells from the P-47's eight 12,7 mm guns destroyed
Galland's instrument panel, shattered the jet's canopy, and struck his
right knee. With his plane losing power and in great pain, Galland
returned to his base, arriving just at the moment when a strafing
attack by enemy fighters was underway. He successfully landed and
escaped the wreck of his Me 262, avoiding the fire of the straffing
attackers.

After war Galland was invited by Juan Perón to help build Argentinian
Air Forces. Here he established a training and operations school,
developed tactical training program. In 1955 he returned to Germany.
Adolf Galland, a holder of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords
and Diamonds, died in 1996.

Wilhelm-Ferdinand
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Wilhelm-Ferdinand Galland is probably the best example that sometimes
aeronautics become a family's bussines. His elder brother was the
reputed ace and General of the Fighter Forces of Germany, Adolf
"Dolfo" Galland (104 victories along WW2), and his younger brother
Paul also became ace (17 kills). Originally the young Wilhelm was
recruited to serve in the flak regiments (1935), but when the war
began in 1939 he volunteered for flying training in the
Ergänzungsgruppe./JG 26. When he completed the training in 1941, he
immediatelly reported for active duty in the II./JG 26 on June 27. At
this time the whole JG 26 was leaded by his elder brother Adolf, so he
was anxious for getting a reputation of his own, for showing that he
was more than only the younger brother of the already famous "Dolfo".
On July 23 1941 "Wutz" began to gain such reputation when he knocked
out a British Spitfire at the NW of Hesdin. By the end of the year, he
already had three Spitfire kills in his scoreboard.

Those were happy times for the Luftwaffe units in the Channel Front,
as is clearly shown by the figures of losses reported for both sides:
Between June 13 and December 31 1941, the RAF lost over 600 aircraft
(including fighters and bombers) in air combat and 411 airmen KIA or
POW, while the Luftwaffe's actual losses in the air in that same
period of time were only 135 aircraft, a kill ratio of 4:1 in favour
of the Germans. It is also interesting to note that the Hurricane and
Spitfire pilots at that time claimed 731 aerial victories, so they had
a huge overclaiming ratio of 82 % !!!

Assigned to the 6./JG 26, "Wutz"'s personal tally began to increase
fast when the JG 26 was re-equipped with the outstanding Focke-Wulf Fw
190A-1 in early 1942. On April 10 1942 Wilhelm Galland finally became
an ace when blasted out of the sky his fifth victim: one Spitfire Mk.V
of the No.340 Sqn RAF over Etaples. The command abilities of Wilhelm
did not remain unnoticed, and he became Staffelkapitän of the 5./JG 26
on May 5. That same day he scored his 8th kill, another Spitfire (No.
41 Sqn RAF). On June 2 1942 flew magnificently his Fw 190 when bagged
two Spitfires (victories Nos.9-10), and repeated such success on July
31 when he piled up other two Spitfires into his scoreboard in less
than a minute (Nos.12-13). During the period February - July 1942 the
Experten of the JG 2 and JG 26 shot down at least 335 aircraft of the
RAF, while losing only 84 Focke-Wulf Fw 190s and Bf 109Fs.

On August 19 1942 the RAF launched Operation "Jubilee", the air
support to the assault against the portuary city of Dieppe. The JG 2
"Richthoffen" and JG 26 "Schlageter" (about 20 squadrons) faced the
whole No.11 Group of the RAF with 48 squadrons of fighters and fighter-
bombers. Despite being out-numbered, the German pilots beaten up their
British adversaries, claiming 96 aerial victories that day, and it is
highly likely that all the German claims are confirmed, because the
RAF admitts the loss of 103 aircraft that day, including 88 Spitfires.
Against such carnage, the Luftwaffe lost only 21 fighters and 14
pilots. Many German Experten increased their respective tallies that
day, for example Joseph "Sepp" Würmheller (he shot down 7 Spitfires
and 1 Blenheim bomber), Egon Mayer (1 Hurricane and 1 Spitfire),
Siegfried Schnell (5 Spitfires), Wilhelm Roth (one Spitfire) and Adolf
Glunz (one Spitfire too). Wilhelm Galland wasn't the exception,
because he destroyed one Spitfire in the afternoon (17:55 hs) N of
Dieppe.

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Few days later (August 27) the 5./JG 26 intercepted the raid "Circus
208", consisting in 12 Bostons escorted by Spitfires of the No.350 Sqn
(Belgian), and Wilhelm Galland shot down the Spit of H. Picard (POW),
his 15th kill. "Wutz" suffered a hard strike on October 31 when his
younger brother Paul was killed in action, but such tragic personal
loss only reinforced his determination, and by the end of 1942, his
tally rised to 21 kills (all Spitfires).

On January 3 1943 Wilhelm-Ferdinand Galland was promoted to the rank
of Hauptmann and took command of II./JG 26, and exactly one month
later (February 3 1943) achieved his greatest succeses: that day
"Wutz" leaded 40 Fw 190A-5 to intercepte 12 British two-engines
bombers Ventura of the No.21 Sqn RAF escorted by Supermarine Spitfires
of the No.64, 122 and 308 Sqns, which went to attack Courtrai-
Wevelghem airfield. At 11:05 hs Galland sent downwards in flames the
Ventura flown by Sgt G. K. Moodley, and only seven minutes later he
blasted one Spitfire of the No.308 Sqn out of the sky (probably the
one piloted by Fg Off J. Wiejsky). Besides, because of his excellent
leadership, his men literally thrashed the escort when shot down other
two Polish Spitfires and forced the pilot of a fourth one (Lt. Tadeusz
Koc) to bail out over the waters of the Channel. During another
Ventura raid in the afternoon, the Fw 190s of the I./JG 2 and II./JG
26 engaged one of the escorting squadrons, the No.416 of the Royal
Canadian Air Force, and again the Experten of "Wutz" Galland beaten
them up: three Spitfires were shot down in few minutes, one of them by
Wilhelm (probably the Spitfire flown by Fg Off J. S. McKenty). A
fourth Spitfire flown by Fg Off Rainville ditched in the waters of the
Channel, Rainville was rescued safe and sound. So, that day the
Luftwaffe shot down eight Spitfires and one Ventura (two Spitfires and
the Ventura by Galland himself), and lost only one Fw 190. Ten days
later "Wutz" added two more marks to the rudder of his personal Fw
190A-5 WNr 530125, when in only 3 minutes (10:17-10:20 hs) bagged a
Spitfire of the No.340 Sqn and a second one of the No.485 Sqn (his
victories Nos.28-29), scoring his 30th kill on February 15 (another
Spitfire).

However, despite the Experten of the JG 2 and JG 26 were at the top of
their skills, they were engaging more frequently a new adversary: the
8th Air Force of the USAAF, with its fighter wings equipped with P-47s
and the bomber wings equipped with the four-engine B-17s and B-24s. So
far, the two German fighter wings had been fully capables to keep the
Axis' air superiority over Northern France and to beat up the RAF, but
the massive arrival of this new contendor threatened with neutralize
the German advantage. "Wutz" faced that new threat for the very first
time in the afternoon on March 8, when he shot down an USAAF B-24 of
the 44th BG over Totes.

His next battle against the "Vërmoten" (the German nickname for the
four-engine bombers) happened on April 4, when he leaded the II./JG 26
to intercepte the enemy bombers and the escort near Fécamp. In first
place shot down one of the escorting Spitfires, and later riddled two
B-17s which went down in flames. On the next day the victim of his
lethal Fw 190 was a B-17 of the 384th BG, which was wiped out near
Antwerp. April was a good month for "Wutz": besides the already
mentioned victories, he blasted out of the sky one Typhoon of No.56
Sqn on the 17th and two Venturas of the No.21 Sqn on April 21 1943.

After a well deserved rest, on May 18 "Wutz" was awarded with the
Ritterkreuz (Knight's Cross) and promoted to the rank of Major.
Ironically, when Wilhelm had his finest moments as a fighter pilot,
the Luftwaffe was begining to be overwhelmed by the crushing numerical
superiority of the Western Allies. In May 1943 the JG 2 and JG 26 lost
91 fighters, and other 53 were seriously damaged; but the worse was
that one Gruppenkommandeur and 15 Staffelkapitänen were killed in
action. Germany simply just could not replace such losses of
experienced pilots. Even worse, the Western Allies were not only
growing in strenght with the arrival of more and more USAAF squadrons,
but also their pilots were gaining combat experience, closing the gap
of skills with the German Experten.

Anyway, the Luftwaffe was still able to cause a tremendous defeat to
the American 8th Air Force on June 26 1943: that day 250 B-17 Flying
Fortresses attacked Villacoublay airfield escorted by 300 fighters
(RAF Spitfires and Typhoons, and P-47s of the 56th FG). At 17:45 hs
the Fw 190s of the JG 2 leaded by Major Egon Mayer met the B-17s over
Liseaux and flamed five of them in few minutes with head-on attacks.
An hour later, the Fw 190A-5s of the II./JG 26 caught by surprise the
P-47s of the 56th FG, and in the blink of an eye its commander Wilhelm-
Ferdinand Galland, Oberleutnant Heinz Hoppe and Feldwebel Günther
Scholz had bagged one Thunderbolt each. Twelve minutes later (19:04)
"Wutz" piled up another P-47 of the 56th FG into his scoreboard, his
46th aerial victory. By the end of the day, seven Thunderbolts and
five B-17s had been downed, against no losses in the German side.

Wilhelm Galland shot down his 54th and last victim on August 12 (a
B-17). Five days later, he took off in the cockpit of his beloved Fw
190A-5 WNr 530125 leading the whole II./JG 26 against a group of 200
bombers which were returning to England after bombing Schweinfurt.
When he was about to order the assault against the four-engine
bombers, his Gruppen was suddenly jumped by P-47 Thunderbolts of the
56th FG. One of them was flown by Walker "Bud" Mahurin, who riddled
Galland's Fw 190 with 12.7 mm machinegun fire and sent it downwards in
flames. Probably we never know whether the unfortunate "Wutz" was
killed instantly or he tried to bail out, but what is out of question
was the fact that he didn't make it: he died when his aircraft crashed
W of Maastricht, leaving a huge crater in the ground. The American
56th Fighter Group took revenge that day of its defeat on June 26, and
Galland's defeater, Walker Mahurin, ended the war with 24.25 victories
(20.8 in Europe and the remaining ones in the Pacific).

In a certain way, it was like his fate was linked with the one of the
whole Luftwaffe: as long as he was alive and bagging Allied planes,
the Luftwaffe in the Channel Front could mantain the air superiority,
but few months after his death, the P-47s and Mustangs of the 8th AF
controlled the airspace over Northern France, allowing the massive
Allied landing in Normandy on June 6 1944, and the begining of Third
Reich's end. However, his outstanding war career is one of the best
examples of the patriotism and skills shown by the brave German pilots
who fought against all odds in the Western Front.

Paul
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Paul Galland was the youngest of the Galland brothers. He joined JG 26
as a Leutnant in February 1941 having completed his operational
training with Ergänzungsgruppe/JG 26. He was assigned to 8./JG 26. He
scored his first victory on 6 July when he shot down a RAF Spitfire.
By the end of 1941 his score had reached three. He recorded his 10th
victory on 3 May 1942, another Spitfire shot down over Calais. On 31
October 1942 Galland participated in the vengeance raid on Canterbury.
On the return flight Galland answered a call from a German pilot being
attacked by a Spitfire. The Spitfire spotted Galland's approach and
pulled up into the cloud cover. Galland attempted to follow but
stalled and had to dive away to regain speed. The Spitfire took the
opportunity to dive from the clouds and shoot down Galland's Fw 190
A-4 (WNr 2402) "Black 1".
Paul Galland was credited with 17 victories in 107 combat missions.

~ Notable People of World War II
Gordon
2010-04-28 22:51:40 UTC
Permalink
AdolfLoading Image...
Adolf Galland is probably the most known Luftwaffe pilot of WWII. Not
because of number of his kills, but special kind of charisma , a
characteristic for all great aces.
Kind of a broad statement -- some of the great aces (off the top of my
head, I think of one American and one German both still alive so I am
not saying names) are genuine assholes, not even liked by their
comrades.
He was the youngest general grade
officer of either side in World War II, and at age 29, he was more
competent in aerial combat, strategy and tactics than many of the
experts nearly twice his age. As a fighter pilot he was credited with
104 aerial victories. He was also famous for making a lot of
modifications to his Bf 109 fighters. He enhanced their fire power,
installed better pilot armour
no he didn't. In fact, when his Wart installed the cockpit armor,
Galland banged his head mightily and cursed out the mechanic for the
injury. He had no idea there was going to be cockpit armor in his
aircraft.
However they were not as lucky in combat.
Wait...what? Pilots need luck in combat or they get killed? No
shit? ;)
During training in 1935, he crashed in a Focke-Wulf Fw-44 biplane and he was
in a coma for three days. He had serious skull fractures, a broken
nose, and a partially blinded left eye from glass fragments. His
commander, Major Rheitel, an aviator from the First World War,
assisted him during his recovery and getting back into flying. He
returned to air duty, but a year later he crashed again, this time on
Arado Ar-68. Galland again spent a lot of time in the hospital.
You make it sound like, for all his skill in aviation, he still
crashed and got hurt. That sounds like bad luck.
Galland experienced being shot down himself on 21 June 1941, when JG26
was stationed at Pas de Calais.
Which is it now, a touch of bad luck, or he was up against superior
British pilots?
The Germans attacked Bristol
"Blenheim" bombers and Galland downed two of them. However, some
escorting "Spitfires" shot up his plane. He was forced to belly-land
in a field. This same day, after lunch, he went on his next sortie. On
that mission he shot down his number 70, but when following the
burning "Spitfire", he was bounced and shot up badly. His plane caught
fire, and he was wounded. He tried to bail out, but the canopy was
jammed. After a dramatic struggle with the canopy, he was able to bail
out at the last moment. His parachute opened just as he hit the
ground. He was bleeding from his head and arm and he had damaged his
ankle on landing. On 2 July 1941 Galland again was in trouble, but
that is another story. Please check the text: Adolf Galland and the
dramatic air combat July of 1941. On 9 August 1941 Galland 'welcomed'
the famous Douglas Bader, who was just shot down by JG26 fighters.
Rob, you just spent a week loudly proclaiming that luck is not a
factor when German pilots are at war. In this essay alone, you have
practically destroyed all of your own arguments to the contrary.
Dan
2010-04-28 23:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Adolfhttp://www.luftwaffe.cz/images/galland3.jpghttp://snyderstreasures.com/albums/watches/AutoGallandHeidiAdolf.jpg
Adolf Galland is probably the most known Luftwaffe pilot of WWII. Not
because of number of his kills, but special kind of charisma , a
characteristic for all great aces.
Kind of a broad statement -- some of the great aces (off the top of my
head, I think of one American and one German both still alive so I am
not saying names) are genuine assholes, not even liked by their
comrades.
He was the youngest general grade
officer of either side in World War II, and at age 29, he was more
competent in aerial combat, strategy and tactics than many of the
experts nearly twice his age. As a fighter pilot he was credited with
104 aerial victories. He was also famous for making a lot of
modifications to his Bf 109 fighters. He enhanced their fire power,
installed better pilot armour
no he didn't. In fact, when his Wart installed the cockpit armor,
Galland banged his head mightily and cursed out the mechanic for the
injury. He had no idea there was going to be cockpit armor in his
aircraft.
However they were not as lucky in combat.
Wait...what? Pilots need luck in combat or they get killed? No
shit? ;)
During training in 1935, he crashed in a Focke-Wulf Fw-44 biplane and he was
in a coma for three days. He had serious skull fractures, a broken
nose, and a partially blinded left eye from glass fragments. His
commander, Major Rheitel, an aviator from the First World War,
assisted him during his recovery and getting back into flying. He
returned to air duty, but a year later he crashed again, this time on
Arado Ar-68. Galland again spent a lot of time in the hospital.
You make it sound like, for all his skill in aviation, he still
crashed and got hurt. That sounds like bad luck.
Galland experienced being shot down himself on 21 June 1941, when JG26
was stationed at Pas de Calais.
Which is it now, a touch of bad luck, or he was up against superior
British pilots?
The Germans attacked Bristol
"Blenheim" bombers and Galland downed two of them. However, some
escorting "Spitfires" shot up his plane. He was forced to belly-land
in a field. This same day, after lunch, he went on his next sortie. On
that mission he shot down his number 70, but when following the
burning "Spitfire", he was bounced and shot up badly. His plane caught
fire, and he was wounded. He tried to bail out, but the canopy was
jammed. After a dramatic struggle with the canopy, he was able to bail
out at the last moment. His parachute opened just as he hit the
ground. He was bleeding from his head and arm and he had damaged his
ankle on landing. On 2 July 1941 Galland again was in trouble, but
that is another story. Please check the text: Adolf Galland and the
dramatic air combat July of 1941. On 9 August 1941 Galland 'welcomed'
the famous Douglas Bader, who was just shot down by JG26 fighters.
Rob, you just spent a week loudly proclaiming that luck is not a
factor when German pilots are at war. In this essay alone, you have
practically destroyed all of your own arguments to the contrary.
Chalk that up to bad luck.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Rob Arndt
2010-04-29 01:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Adolfhttp://www.luftwaffe.cz/images/galland3.jpghttp://snyderstreasures.co...
Adolf Galland is probably the most known Luftwaffe pilot of WWII. Not
because of number of his kills, but special kind of charisma , a
characteristic for all great aces.
Kind of a broad statement -- some of the great aces (off the top of my
head, I think of one American and one German both still alive so I am
not saying names) are genuine assholes, not even liked by their
comrades.
�He was the youngest general grade
officer of either side in World War II, and at age 29, he was more
competent in aerial combat, strategy and tactics than many of the
experts nearly twice his age. As a fighter pilot he was credited with
104 aerial victories. He was also famous for making a lot of
modifications to his Bf 109 fighters. He enhanced their fire power,
installed better pilot armour
no he didn't. �In fact, when his Wart installed the cockpit armor,
Galland banged his head mightily and cursed out the mechanic for the
injury. �He had no idea there was going to be cockpit armor in his
aircraft.
However they were not as lucky in combat.
Wait...what? �Pilots need luck in combat or they get killed? � No
shit? ;)
During training in 1935, he crashed in a Focke-Wulf Fw-44 biplane and he was
in a coma for three days. He had serious skull fractures, a broken
nose, and a partially blinded left eye from glass fragments. His
commander, Major Rheitel, an aviator from the First World War,
assisted him during his recovery and getting back into flying. He
returned to air duty, but a year later he crashed again, this time on
Arado Ar-68. Galland again spent a lot of time in the hospital.
You make it sound like, for all his skill in aviation, he still
crashed and got hurt. �That sounds like bad luck.
Galland experienced being shot down himself on 21 June 1941, when JG26
was stationed at Pas de Calais.
Which is it now, a touch of bad luck, or he was up against superior
British pilots?
The Germans attacked Bristol
"Blenheim" bombers and Galland downed two of them. However, some
escorting "Spitfires" shot up his plane. He was forced to belly-land
in a field. This same day, after lunch, he went on his next sortie. On
that mission he shot down his number 70, but when following the
burning "Spitfire", he was bounced and shot up badly. His plane caught
fire, and he was wounded. He tried to bail out, but the canopy was
jammed. After a dramatic struggle with the canopy, he was able to bail
out at the last moment. His parachute opened just as he hit the
ground. He was bleeding from his head and arm and he had damaged his
ankle on landing. On 2 July 1941 Galland again was in trouble, but
that is another story. Please check the text: Adolf Galland and the
dramatic air combat July of 1941. On 9 August 1941 Galland 'welcomed'
the famous Douglas Bader, who was just shot down by JG26 fighters.
Rob, you just spent a week loudly proclaiming that luck is not a
factor when German pilots are at war. �In this essay alone, you have
practically destroyed all of your own arguments to the contrary.
Gordon,

These are from the "Notable Pilots of World War II" site- I never
wrote any of this. Do you see my signature at the bottom?- No. I liked
the style of the site and the general facts of many pilots, not just
German, so I'm posting the articles here for the NG. But the NG is
biased against the German pilots and yet ignores the fact that I
posted on female ace Lydia Litvak, the best Dutch ace, best Icelandic
Ace, Richard Bong, and some other info from the site about WW2.

Anyway, again I'll pose the question to you Gordon, "what generates
luck?" No such thing if you believe in God. And if you don't believe
in God, then you are a fool.

A personal example from 1984:

My brother once took me and our friend on a joyride with Capital
Yamaha's truck when he worked ROP for them as motorcycle mechanic to
pick up a 250cc engine from PCP Yamaha. I was to be taken home
afterwards, but my brother and friend thought it would be nice to push
the old Toyota pick-up to its limits on an old road (just 2 blocks
from our street) where the asphalt ended and turned into gravel. He
pushed the crammed vehicle up to 60 mph+ and then hit the gravel.
Well, the brakes didn't work, we fish-tailed, and then hit a high
embankment at 60 mph. The truck flipped violently 3 times until it
fell with a thud on 4 wheels. Our friend had been ejected through the
safety glass and was in the field; my brother was compressed by the
steeering wheel and trapped; and I was OK with just a few scratches on
my right arm which had been flailing when the car rolled. I jumped out
the window and saw that the truck was totalled- literally crushed like
a tin can and ruined. The tailgate was ripped off too. Then I saw our
friend alive and coming towards us- he had a concussion and was
bleeding, but helped me get my brother out of the truck from under the
bent wheel. A farmer who witnessed the event called for an ambulance.
Now was it luck that we three were alive? That our friend who should
have been killed wasn't, or that out of all three of us that survived
only I had a few scratches while the other two got hospitalized for
days? How about that 250cc engine flying around too? We should have
died.

(at this point many here would have wished that for me) :)

No, it simply was not our time to die- same for all pilots, soldiers,
and sailors in warfare. No matter how close the shave, if it wasn't
your time to die, then it wasn't. Luck is made-up nonsense. Only God
knows when and how all of us will die and if it isn't time, it isn't.
There is also no such thing as right place, right time and wrong
place, wrong time. God knows exactly where you are at all times!

Luck will always be in wartime accounts, but try proving that someone
was luckier than someone else. Many that died might have lived and had
worse lives as paraplegics or quads or institutionalized, etc... and
many that lived might have been better off dead then to face a worse
fate or come back home with a sense of nothing to live for or PTSD for
the rest of their lives. 60% of those in Afghanistan and Iraq come
home with PTSD now... is that better? Are they luckier than those that
died instantly in an IED explosion?

The point is that all these pilots, Allied or Axis were trained to
kill enemy aircraft. Some were better than others and God knew who
would live and die at all times. No luck involved. You will notice
that the Germans in both World Wars were the top aces. Luck within two
generations? Or did Nazi ideology make them better on the trigger or
evasive moves ;)

Do explain... and please use whatever luck explanation with Hanna
Reitsch. Would love to hear that one as Hanna admits many times in her
books that she _should_ have died but was spared to live. By whom?

Shall we discuss "circumstances" next ;)

Rob
d***@aol.com
2010-04-29 01:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Rob, your problem here is you think we're cutting your heros down by
saying they were lucky. We're not. We're just saying that
"luck"...however you want to define it...enables some to survive when
others died. Were the experten great pilots? Yes. Were the ones who
survived hundreds of missions, hundreds of engagements, being wounded,
being shot down, crash landing, mechanical problems, etc, etc lucky?
In part.....skill can get you so far, but sometimes you need a bit
extra.

Many excellent pilots are dead because they were in the wrong place
at the wrong time....that's usually referred to as bad luck. what do
you call hitting the tailplane when you bail out? I'm sure Marseille
knew how to bail out....he'd done it several times...but the last time
he either screwed up or something out of his control happened (bad
luck/sh*t happens/wrong place at the wrong time/whatever you want to
call it)

Call it what you want....war is extremely random...the best you can
do is get as good as you can get and hope you don't get unlucky.
Reitsch was lucky to survive takeoffs and landings at an airfield
under artillery fire. Did skill help? Sure, but there are too many
factors one can't control for skill to be the only answer. You can't
dodge a shell that lands on you or right in front of you.

Now, were the best experten better than the best Allied pilots?
Probably...from experience alone if nothing else. On the flip side, by
1944, the average USAAF/RAF pilot was better than the average
Luftwaffe pilot. Too many good/great/expert Luftwaffe pilots had been
killed....maybe because they ran into someone better on a given day or
maybe because their luck ran out.

Once again, these pilots didn't do it all on skill because there
are too many occasions where skill doesn't help. Call it what you
will.
Rob Arndt
2010-04-29 04:02:20 UTC
Permalink
� Rob, your problem here is you think we're cutting your heros down by
saying they were lucky. We're not. We're just saying that
"luck"...however you want to define it...enables some to survive when
others died. Were the experten great pilots? Yes. Were the ones who
survived hundreds of missions, hundreds of engagements, being wounded,
being shot down, crash landing, mechanical problems, etc, etc lucky?
In part.....skill can get you so far, but sometimes you need a bit
extra.
� �Many excellent pilots are dead because they were in the wrong place
at the wrong time....that's usually referred to as bad luck. what do
you call hitting the tailplane when you bail out? I'm sure Marseille
knew how to bail out....he'd done it several times...but the last time
he either screwed up or something out of his control happened (bad
luck/sh*t happens/wrong place at the wrong time/whatever you want to
call it)
� �Call it what you want....war is extremely random...the best you can
do is get as good as you can get and hope you don't get unlucky.
Reitsch was lucky to survive takeoffs and landings at an airfield
under artillery fire. Did skill help? Sure, but there are too many
factors one can't control for skill to be the only answer. You can't
dodge a shell that lands on you or right in front of you.
� �Now, were the best experten better than the best Allied pilots?
Probably...from experience alone if nothing else. On the flip side, by
1944, the average USAAF/RAF pilot was better than the average
Luftwaffe pilot. Too many good/great/expert Luftwaffe pilots had been
killed....maybe because they ran into someone better on a given day or
maybe because their luck ran out.
� �Once again, these pilots didn't do it all on skill because there
are too many occasions where skill doesn't help. Call it what you
will.
Why does everyone here seem to believe that by posting on LW pilots
that they automatically are my "heroes"? Sure, I admire many of them
to some degree, but if anyone has followed my posts for 12 yrs then
they should know that my favorites are female- Hanna Reitsch and Lydia
(Lilya) Litvak and only Litvak is on my wall. The others are in photo
albums with the a/c being more inportant to me than any pilot
collection. I have 33,000+ a/c photos printed, not stored on my HD or
ext. HD. The albums weigh hundreds of lbs and take up lots of storage
space inside and outside my home.

If you bother to read Robert(a) Cowell's story, he/she is another
person I admire. He was a famed British race car driver and RAF
fighter pilot that postwar was one of Britain's first sex-change
individuals. I admire him for perservering in a hostile world
concerning his change of sexuality and the courage to be what he
wanted to be. I admire Maria Anne Hirschmann who was both BDM and SS
(non-concentration camp or armed) who repented and became an
evangelist that lives in Hawaii. I admire Feldmarshall Rommel like
many people around the world do. But I have no real hero worship which
is immoral anyway. Only God is to be worshipped.

What people do not seem to get is that the German pilots were severely
overwhelmed by Allied numerical superiority. Not non-rotation... they
kept the psychological edge and could take the pressure. But the
numbers got them in the end. There is no way to prevail despite all
skills when you are outnumbered 11:1+ in the air. As pointed out
repeatedly, an average late-war Allied air raid was 800-1000 armed
bombers with 500 escort fighters. The German Flak tried to whittle
down those numbers, but when the 300 avg German fighters came up they
faced a literal wall of firepower from all the bomber guns and escort
fighters. The best the Germans could do is come in fast, fire, and
evade... then attempt another pass or two. It is absolutely amazing
that they faced this daily and kept going. Credit also goes to the
zealous German airfield flak gunners and the maintenence crews that
kept the piston and jet fighters going even though they knew 100% the
war was lost as far back as Barbarossa!!! You guys give no credit to
them and the fact that it still took another 11 months since D-Day to
win that war and it was more due to the Soviets reaching Berlin than
anything the Western Allies did with bombing. Soviet armor was
superior to any Allied design and up to almost German standards for
firepower, armor protection, and even had better mobility. The German
armor could out-range them and take more of a beating with
superior ,but were too few in number to stop 10,000 tanks from taking
Berlin and 20,000 artillery pieces backed up by over 4000 a/c and 2
million men.

Anyway, all of these articles are for the NG and I did cover some
Allied/Russian pilots too as well as German and Finnish.

Your lack of responses to those "heros" shows your bias against any
German accomplishments. And the luck nonsense is bullshit.

Most Allied pilots did a lot of praying to God and that is faith. The
guys who put faith in wax bunnies, lucky charms, and idols, were
usually the ones that got shot down. I know one B-24 pilot (deceased
now) that flew with a wax bunny for good luck and when it melted away
they were shot down and most crew killed. The pilot that survived was
brought up as strict Baptist and did not like the bunny worship. Good
for him- God spared him. The Germans to my knowledge were not big on
good luck charms but German desire to rack up kills and their units
usually backed the high-scorers up. Nothing special as most major AFs
did the same thing. But people like Lilya Litvak routinely fought-off
6-8 Me Bf 109s while escorting IL-2s. Luck had no part in willful
determination mixed with intense patriotism and courage; equally, the
LW was determined to kill her as a goal and they did after her second
shoot-down. Her luck did not run out- the LW beat her with
determination and it was her time to die. End of story.

Rob

p.s. Try luck with the July 20th bomb plot. In that case Hitler was
not lucky. Someone willfully moved the bomb case and that saved him
due to its new postion. That is someone's conscious action, not luck.
Gordon
2010-04-29 04:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Arndt
What people do not seem to get is that the German pilots were severely
overwhelmed by Allied numerical superiority. Not non-rotation... they
kept the psychological edge and could take the pressure.
Well Rob, that's where I call BS -- there were "Flak Hotels" for US
bomber crews that had been badly shot up by German fighters or flak.
There were English country estates given over to these crews, to give
them a break to recover and bounce back, instead of breaking.

The RAF had the same sort of facilities -- helped to head off onset of
the twitch.

And guess what? The Luftwaffe had several; in fact, the 'recruiting
trip' you mentioned earlier for JV-44 was not to squadrons (it would
have been illegal and likely would have led to being executed for
abandoning their posts for pilots to leave their units to join
Galland). Instead, the "recruiters" went to the biggest of the German
"resorts" that were reserved for the upper echelon of fighter pilots
to recover from the rigors of combat. Krupinski among many others in
JV-44 had spent the previous period playing pool and waiting for the
end. That's in Steinhof's book and General Krupinski told me the same
thing. My point is that you are completely wrong on this:
overwhelming numbers alone is not what finished the Luftwaffe and its
pilots -- it was five solid years of combat. If you honestly think
that people can face death every day for years without effect, well,
you have no idea what you are talking about. Not trying to pick a
fight but you are making a claim without any possible experience or
data to back it up. The German pilots weren't *really* supermen, Rob
-- they suffered from the same psychological effects of combat as
anyone else. The British had LMF and "the twitch", Patton smacked a
'coward', and there were reports of "Mosquito panic" among night
flyers in the Nachtjagd. What about Galland himself? Its well
established that he stopped flying his chevron-marked, victory-
festooned Bf 109, once it began to be whispered that Allied pilots
were offered a bounty on "Honchos" (they weren't, but it was a good
propaganda story). After that, he took a more modestly painted
aircraft, without any command markings on it. To back up his hunch,
the Nachwuch that took his "Kommodore"-marked aircraft on that mission
did not return. For the rest of the war, Galland flew in basically
anonymous aircraft.
Post by Rob Arndt
Your lack of responses to those "heros" shows your bias against any
German accomplishments. And the luck nonsense is bullshit.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Post by Rob Arndt
Most Allied pilots did a lot of praying to God and that is faith.
you know this how?
Post by Rob Arndt
The guys who put faith in wax bunnies, lucky charms, and idols, were
usually the ones that got shot down.
you know this how?
Post by Rob Arndt
I know one B-24 pilot (deceased
now) that flew with a wax bunny for good luck and when it melted away
they were shot down and most crew killed. The pilot that survived was
brought up as strict Baptist and did not like the bunny worship. Good
for him- God spared him.
So in wartime, only non-believers are killed? Or is it a bit more
random than that?
Post by Rob Arndt
The Germans to my knowledge were not big on
good luck charms but German desire to rack up kills and their units
usually backed the high-scorers up. Nothing special as most major AFs
did the same thing.
"Quax" probably doesn't ring a bell then, does it?
Gordon
2010-04-29 03:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Arndt
These are from the "Notable Pilots of World War II" site- I never
wrote any of this. Do you see my signature at the bottom?- No.
understood -- but you posted it without comments, and you chose
passages from that website that show these pilots suffered wide swings
of fortune and there were many opportunities along the way that could
have left them crippled or dead. I refuse to debate religious tenants
with you or anyone else -- you can use whatever words or concepts you
want to explain why some people live through horrific events while
others do not.
Post by Rob Arndt
I liked the style of the site and the general facts of many pilots, not just
German, so I'm posting the articles here for the NG. But the NG is
biased against the German pilots and yet ignores the fact that I
posted on female ace Lydia Litvak, the best Dutch ace, best Icelandic
Ace, Richard Bong, and some other info from the site about WW2.
Anyway, again I'll pose the question to you Gordon, "what generates
luck?" No such thing if you believe in God. And if you don't believe
in God, then you are a fool.
Oh God, if there is a God,
Save my soul, if I have a soul.
My personal example from 1985 was a fiance killed on her way home from
a graduation party while I was on a destroyer in the Persian Gulf. No
one will care about the details but I get your point -- sometimes,
people live when it seems they should not. It blows up your theory
that Rudel and other German pilots were just so incredibly skilled
they could not be beaten; in the end, they were soundly defeated,
whether in the air (yes, they were all driven from the sky) or on the
ground. The German people, the German military, the Luftwaffe, the
Fighter Arm, and every last German pilot ultimately /lost/.
Post by Rob Arndt
(at this point many here would have wished that for me) :)
no one wants you to die -- they want you to mature to a point where
you can debate without calling names and make posts that don't demean
people for the simple crime of not being a WWII German. Other than
that, I don't think anyone has a problem with you. Seriously.
Post by Rob Arndt
No, it simply was not our time to die- same for all pilots, soldiers,
and sailors in warfare. No matter how close the shave, if it wasn't
your time to die, then it wasn't. Luck is made-up nonsense. Only God
knows when and how all of us will die and if it isn't time, it isn't.
There is also no such thing as right place, right time and wrong
place, wrong time. God knows exactly where you are at all times!
Sure beats having to worry about self-determination.
Post by Rob Arndt
Luck will always be in wartime accounts, but try proving that someone
was luckier than someone else. Many that died might have lived and had
worse lives as paraplegics or quads or institutionalized, etc... and
many that lived might have been better off dead then to face a worse
fate or come back home with a sense of nothing to live for or PTSD for
the rest of their lives. 60% of those in Afghanistan and Iraq come
home with PTSD now... is that better? Are they luckier than those that
died instantly in an IED explosion?
The point is that all these pilots, Allied or Axis were trained to
kill enemy aircraft. Some were better than others and God knew who
would live and die at all times. No luck involved.
Lets use the word "Providence" instead. Doesn't change the underlying
fact that pilot survival is not entirely due to his personal skill
level. I know a man that shot down the first six enemy planes he ever
saw -- on the same day. They guys he was up against were true pros
with years of combat experience between them, yet he tore through the
enemy aircraft like an old hand. Then you have Oesau, chased into
the ground and killed at a time when his level of skill was inarguably
about as high as it gets. He just plain didn't make it -- Providence/
luck/cursed or whatever you want to call it - his skill was overcome
by less experienced pilots.
Post by Rob Arndt
You will notice
that the Germans in both World Wars were the top aces.
...and the system that allows a man to reach the top and does not
utilize his skills to train dozens or even hundreds of replacements is
going to provide two things - individual pilots with high scores and
legions of dead newbies that never got a chance to learn from him.
One of the results, in both wars, of the "German system" was to lose
the air war with this kind of short-sightedness. While you believe
their victory totals speak of a mastery of the air, what is shows is
strategic myopia. Gets back to the old saw, "How many Luftwaffe
aircraft were lost?"

Every last one.
Post by Rob Arndt
Luck within two
generations? Or did Nazi ideology make them better on the trigger or
evasive moves ;)
The lost decisively, twice, in two successive generations. Nazi
ideology doomed them to either a violent death or a life in a
conquered nation.
Post by Rob Arndt
Do explain... and please use whatever luck explanation with Hanna
Reitsch. Would love to hear that one as Hanna admits many times in her
books that she _should_ have died but was spared to live. By whom?
Apparently not by her own skill alone, we can agree on that.
h***@KENT.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
2010-04-30 04:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Adolfhttp://www.luftwaffe.cz/images/galland3.jpghttp://snyderstreasures.com/albums/watches/AutoGallandHeidiAdolf.jpg
Rob, you just spent a week loudly proclaiming that luck is not a
factor when German pilots are at war. In this essay alone, you have
practically destroyed all of your own arguments to the contrary.
As a seasoned veteran of out-dated tactices, Rob's logic performed
Lufberry circles, sometimes extremely large ones. Such as in this
case. The idea appears to be to avoid losing too much altitude during
each turn. However, tragically, he ends up running out of fuel
instead. Not to mention that he is in a circle all by himself.

David E. Powell
2010-04-29 01:39:34 UTC
Permalink
R.I.P. his two brothers. People higher up the chain than they were
started the whole thing. It would have been much better if they
hadn't.
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