Discussion:
SU-24 vs F-111
(too old to reply)
Mike Stargen
2004-11-16 17:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Which aircraft was better? Also, why did they change the designation
from SU-19 to SU-24? Are there major differences between the two?

Mike
Ragnar
2004-11-16 17:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Stargen
Which aircraft was better? Also, why did they change the designation
from SU-19 to SU-24? Are there major differences between the two?
Mike
Define "better". IMO the F-111 was "better". Faster, carried more stuff,
etc.
Kurt R. Todoroff
2004-11-16 18:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Operationally: The F-111 was a superior aircraft.

Maintenance and Logistically: The SU-24 had a poor record like the Vark.
However, it wasn't nearly the maintenance nightmare that the Vark was.



Kurt Todoroff
***@aol.com

Markets, not mandates and mob rule.
Consent, not compulsion.
rottenberg
2004-11-17 01:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Stargen
Which aircraft was better? Also, why did they change the designation
from SU-19 to SU-24? Are there major differences between the two?
Mike
Do we know for certain that the Russians ever referred to the plane as
the Su-19? I always thought that that was in error. On the flip
side, Russian nomenclature tends towards the Byzantine, so perhaps
they did change it. Possible reasons were to distance the plane from
the Fitter series. I've gave up ever trying to make sense of Soviet
designations when they revealed that the Backfire really was the
Tu-22M, and not the Tu-26 as originally described.
Nele VII
2004-11-17 05:45:33 UTC
Permalink
rottenberg wrote in message ...
Post by rottenberg
Do we know for certain that the Russians ever referred to the plane as
the Su-19? I always thought that that was in error. On the flip
side, Russian nomenclature tends towards the Byzantine, so perhaps
they did change it. Possible reasons were to distance the plane from
the Fitter series. I've gave up ever trying to make sense of Soviet
designations when they revealed that the Backfire really was the
Tu-22M, and not the Tu-26 as originally described.
Tu-20, Su-19 and Su-21 are names "invented" by the West for Tu-95, Su-24 and
Su-15TM. Even MiG-25 was thought to be designated as MiG-23 back in
60'es/early 70'ies (while MiG-23/27 designation itself was considered by MiG
for I/Sht double-delta MiG-21 offsprings). Then put project numbers to top
it off.

It is actually simple, just switch the Master Logic off :-))))

About how complicated Su-24 is... here was one "authority" (Vladimir Malukh)
on Soviet aircraft doing conversion on FA Su-24's for export (Su-24M to MK).
He said it was so extensive that they could have built new export aircraft
same way :-)

He also wrote that, according to Sukhoi's Siberian Division, Su-24's VMax at
0ft is M1.1.

From the available Internet information (in Russian, abbreviated book by one
of Su's engineers), Su-24 owes much to F-111 planform, "Jaguar" landing gear
and GE J-79 engine (and would like to ask Ken Duffey if he has ever seen
Lylka Al-21 engine to prove or disprove this).

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA
robert arndt
2004-11-17 16:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by rottenberg
Post by Mike Stargen
Which aircraft was better? Also, why did they change the designation
from SU-19 to SU-24? Are there major differences between the two?
Mike
Do we know for certain that the Russians ever referred to the plane as
the Su-19? I always thought that that was in error. On the flip
side, Russian nomenclature tends towards the Byzantine, so perhaps
they did change it. Possible reasons were to distance the plane from
the Fitter series. I've gave up ever trying to make sense of Soviet
designations when they revealed that the Backfire really was the
Tu-22M, and not the Tu-26 as originally described.
Yes, the original Su-19 Fencer first flew in 1970 and entered service
in 1974. Here is the first photo of it (from western sources) and a
drawing:

Loading Image...
Loading Image...

Both are from the 1979-1980 Jane's All the World's Aircraft
Notice the slightly different configuration with the odd intakes.


The redesignated Su-24 Fencer first flew in 1976.

Here is a walk around page of it:
http://www.samolet.co.uk/su24.html

The Su-24 was used in the first war in Chechnya.

Rob
TJ
2004-11-20 20:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by robert arndt
Post by rottenberg
Post by Mike Stargen
Which aircraft was better? Also, why did they change the designation
from SU-19 to SU-24? Are there major differences between the two?
Mike
Do we know for certain that the Russians ever referred to the plane as
the Su-19? I always thought that that was in error. On the flip
side, Russian nomenclature tends towards the Byzantine, so perhaps
they did change it. Possible reasons were to distance the plane from
the Fitter series. I've gave up ever trying to make sense of Soviet
designations when they revealed that the Backfire really was the
Tu-22M, and not the Tu-26 as originally described.
Yes, the original Su-19 Fencer first flew in 1970 and entered service
in 1974. Here is the first photo of it (from western sources) and a
http://www.aviation.ru/Su/24/firstSu24.gif
http://www.aviation.ru/Su/24/artist.gif
Both are from the 1979-1980 Jane's All the World's Aircraft
Notice the slightly different configuration with the odd intakes.
The redesignated Su-24 Fencer first flew in 1976.
http://www.samolet.co.uk/su24.html
The Su-24 was used in the first war in Chechnya.
Rob
Rob, please catch a grip. The designation for the FENCER as SU-19 was
erroneous. The same as the Tu-26 for the BACKFIRE. The T6-2I went into
production as the Su-24. There was no redesignation in 1976. Sukhoi
had plans for a tactical fighter with the designation Su-19 but was
never built. The first combat missions flown by the Su-24 were in
Afghanistan. The Su-19 designation was what the west thought the
FENCER would be.

TJ
Wolfhenson
2004-11-21 15:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Sir,
The designation Su-19 applied to a Su-17M variant, that was later
designated Su-17M3 according to the Armada book on Su-17. That project
ran in parallel with Su-24 development and that probably caused the
mix up, so the strike fighter was built, but never designated Su-19.

Nemanja Vukicevic
aeronautical engineering graduate

TJ
2004-11-17 08:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Stargen
Which aircraft was better? Also, why did they change the designation
from SU-19 to SU-24? Are there major differences between the two?
Mike
The SU-19 designation was an erroneous one. It appeared in many
publications during the 1970s onwards. The early developments of the
"SU-24" T6 did not have a seing wing but a double-delta similar to
some variants of the SU-15 FLAGON. Production went with the swing-wing
developments.

TJ
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