1946 Allied Aircraft: P-51H vs Spiteful Mk.XVI vs CAC-15

Which would you choose and why???

Northe American P-51H:
Loading Image...

Supermarine Spiteful Mk.XVI:
Loading Image...

CAC-15:
Loading Image...

Rob

David E. Powell

2008-11-20 17:26:01 UTC

Post by Rob Arndt
Which would you choose and why???
Northe American P-51H:http://www.aeroknow.com/images/P-51Hhamilton.jpg
Supermarine Spiteful Mk.XVI:http://www.vicflintham.co.uk/content/post-war-military-aircraft/spit/...
CAC-15:http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t16/thebozeian/CAC-15KangarooatFis...
Rob

P-51 H for range, speed, and handling balance.

Steve Hix

2008-11-20 17:58:13 UTC

In article

Post by David E. Powell

Post by Rob Arndt
Which would you choose and why???
Northe American P-51H:http://www.aeroknow.com/images/P-51Hhamilton.jpg
Supermarine Spiteful
Mk.XVI:http://www.vicflintham.co.uk/content/post-war-military-aircraft/spit/
...
CAC-15:http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t16/thebozeian/CAC-15KangarooatFis
...
Rob

P-51 H for range, speed, and handling balance.

At the Watsonville Fly-in earlier this year, one of the warbirds in
attendance was a P-51H. It flew along with a couple of P-51D/K, a Sea
Fury, F6F, and a Yak 9U.

It was a bit surprising how much quicker it got off the ground than the
other Mustangs.

Orval Fairbairn

2008-11-20 18:48:03 UTC

Post by Steve Hix
In article

Post by David E. Powell

Post by Rob Arndt
Which would you choose and why???
Northe American P-51H:http://www.aeroknow.com/images/P-51Hhamilton.jpg
Supermarine Spiteful
Mk.XVI:http://www.vicflintham.co.uk/content/post-war-military-aircraft/spi
t/
...
CAC-15:http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t16/thebozeian/CAC-15KangarooatF
is
...
Rob

P-51 H for range, speed, and handling balance.

At the Watsonville Fly-in earlier this year, one of the warbirds in
attendance was a P-51H. It flew along with a couple of P-51D/K, a Sea
Fury, F6F, and a Yak 9U.
It was a bit surprising how much quicker it got off the ground than the
other Mustangs.

I have known the owner for the last 30 years -- it is the only one
flying; most of the rest were never released to civilian hands and were
melted down. :>(

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Steve Hix

2008-11-20 21:41:33 UTC

In article

Post by Steve Hix
In article

Post by David E. Powell
P-51 H for range, speed, and handling balance.

At the Watsonville Fly-in earlier this year, one of the warbirds in
attendance was a P-51H. It flew along with a couple of P-51D/K, a Sea
Fury, F6F, and a Yak 9U.
It was a bit surprising how much quicker it got off the ground than the
other Mustangs.

I have known the owner for the last 30 years -- it is the only one
flying; most of the rest were never released to civilian hands and were
melted down. :>(

N551H is the one.

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors/p51listH.shtml lists it
as one of five still existing. Three of them listed as either on display
or being restored, and lists N49WB as flying down in Florida.

N49WB spent most of its flying life with NACA at Moffett Field, and some
sources say it's still airworthy and flying, but that may be outdated
information post-2002.

webpa

2008-11-22 00:06:14 UTC

Post by Steve Hix
In article

Post by Steve Hix
In article

Post by David E. Powell
P-51 H for range, speed, and handling balance.

At the Watsonville Fly-in earlier this year, one of the warbirds in
attendance was a P-51H. It flew along with a couple of P-51D/K, a Sea
Fury, F6F, and a Yak 9U.
It was a bit surprising how much quicker it got off the ground than the
other Mustangs.

I have known the owner for the last 30 years -- it is the only one
flying; most of the rest were never released to civilian hands and were
melted down. :>(

N551H is the one.
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors/p51listH.shtmllists it
as one of five still existing. Three of them listed as either on display
or being restored, and lists N49WB as flying down in Florida.
N49WB spent most of its flying life with NACA at Moffett Field, and some
sources say it's still airworthy and flying, but that may be outdated
information post-2002.

We should remember that the P-51H was re-designed as a light-weight
interceptor. IIRC: Thinner skins in many places; bigger holes in
webs, deleted armour, lighter-weight hydraulic accumulator tanks, and
the latest-greatest Merlin. Built (IIRC) only at Ft Worth.

Steve Hix

2008-11-22 00:35:40 UTC

In article

Post by webpa
We should remember that the P-51H was re-designed as a light-weight
interceptor. IIRC: Thinner skins in many places; bigger holes in
webs, deleted armour, lighter-weight hydraulic accumulator tanks, and
the latest-greatest Merlin. Built (IIRC) only at Ft Worth.

The quickest way (for me) to tell it on the ground from the P-51D/K is
to look at the main landing gear. The wheels are distinctly smaller.

That, and the vertical stabilizer is taller on the H.

Orval Fairbairn

2008-11-22 01:53:33 UTC

Post by Steve Hix
In article

The quickest way (for me) to tell it on the ground from the P-51D/K is
to look at the main landing gear. The wheels are distinctly smaller.
That, and the vertical stabilizer is taller on the H.

And the fuselage is deeper; there is no crank in the leading edge of the
wings, either.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Steve Hix

2008-11-22 05:43:50 UTC

In article

Post by Steve Hix
In article

The quickest way (for me) to tell it on the ground from the P-51D/K is
to look at the main landing gear. The wheels are distinctly smaller.
That, and the vertical stabilizer is taller on the H.

And the fuselage is deeper; there is no crank in the leading edge of the
wings, either.

Right, but I have to dust off my spectacles and get my breathing down to
near normal rates before I can notice that level of detail.

Eunometic

2008-11-23 20:37:35 UTC

Post by webpa

Post by Steve Hix
In article

Post by Steve Hix
In article

Post by David E. Powell
P-51 H for range, speed, and handling balance.

At the Watsonville Fly-in earlier this year, one of the warbirds in
attendance was a P-51H. It flew along with a couple of P-51D/K, a Sea
Fury, F6F, and a Yak 9U.
It was a bit surprising how much quicker it got off the ground than the
other Mustangs.

I have known the owner for the last 30 years -- it is the only one
flying; most of the rest were never released to civilian hands and were
melted down. :>(

N551H is the one.
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors/p51listH.shtmllistsit
as one of five still existing. Three of them listed as either on display
or being restored, and lists N49WB as flying down in Florida.
N49WB spent most of its flying life with NACA at Moffett Field, and some
sources say it's still airworthy and flying, but that may be outdated
information post-2002.

It also had the following changes:
1 Lengthened tail
2 Enlarged Height Vertical Fin)
(The P-51D had some serious lateral stabillity issues which lead to
greater than usual problems in spin recovery and possible breakup
during snap rolls, hence the increased tail moment arm and tail area)
3 Strengthened tail.
(So the P-51H was strengthened where it was important and 'lightened'
where it wasn't.)
4 New wing cross section. IE it had a new, thinner wing.
5 New, larger canopy
6 Tail fuel tank was deleted (I assume the improved aerodynamics
would have just about
made up for the loss of the troublesome tail tank)

I don't think the P-51H was 'weak' and it would be interesting to find
out what
load factors the P-51D was designed for. US fighters were stressed to
9G in the assumption that they would be doing extreme maneuvers in the
dense
lower atmosphere as part of support of ground attack aircraft while
RAF aircraft
like the spitfire were stressed to a 6G standard since they emphasised
other
factors such as climb and turn.

Geoffrey Sinclair

2008-11-24 12:05:47 UTC

"Eunometic" <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:fdf2d825-f044-45d2-93d2-***@i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 22, 11:06 am, webpa <***@aol.com> wrote:

(snip)

Post by Eunometic

1 Lengthened tail
2 Enlarged Height Vertical Fin)
(The P-51D had some serious lateral stabillity issues which lead to
greater than usual problems in spin recovery and possible breakup
during snap rolls, hence the increased tail moment arm and tail area)

The D model lost some of its stability thanks to the loss of rear fuselage
area when the bubble canopy was introduced, hence the tail fillet
modification. This was aggravated by the amount of fuel in the rear
fuselage tank. "Serious lateral stability issues" is an exaggeration.

Post by Eunometic
3 Strengthened tail.
(So the P-51H was strengthened where it was important and 'lightened'
where it wasn't.)
4 New wing cross section. IE it had a new, thinner wing.
5 New, larger canopy
6 Tail fuel tank was deleted (I assume the improved aerodynamics
would have just about made up for the loss of the troublesome tail tank)

Try the internal fuel tanks were rearranged, to give 255 US gallons of
fuel, versus the 269 gallons of the P-51D. The more powerful engine
seems to have meant the range on internal fuel dropped from 950 to
850 miles compared with the D model. The H cruised about 20
mph faster.

Post by Eunometic
I don't think the P-51H was 'weak' and it would be interesting to find
out what load factors the P-51D was designed for.

To quote Dean in America's hundred thousand the P-51A was stressed
for an allowable flight load limit of 8 G and break up at 12 G.

Post by Eunometic
US fighters were stressed to 9G in the assumption that they would be
doing extreme maneuvers in the dense lower atmosphere as part of
support of ground attack aircraft while RAF aircraft like the spitfire
were stressed to a 6G standard since they emphasised other
factors such as climb and turn.

To quote the RAF contract for a 1930 fighter design,

"The strength of the main structure when carrying the load specified in
paragraph 3, plus 100 pounds, shall not be less than as specified
hereunder
- Load factor throughout the structure with the centre of pressure in
its most forward position 9.0
-Load factor for wing structure with the center of pressure in its
most backward position 6.0
- Load factor in terminal nose dive 1.75."

So where do the RAF 6 and USAAF 9 G figures come from?

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

guy

2008-11-22 09:42:08 UTC

Tempest II ;-)
Scores on range firepower speed manoeuverability controlabiity and as
a gun platform.
Not the best in every category but difficult to beat as a package.
Tempest V achieved a kill at IIRC 530IAS (Roland Beamont) - apparently
a record in WWII, and probably a record for all time for a piston
engined fighter, It was considered that no other allied fighter could
even open fire at such a speed.

Guy

Gordon

2008-11-22 15:39:28 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?

guy

2008-11-22 17:23:40 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

It was a 109 I think maybe a '190, I will check.

Guy

guy

2008-11-22 17:52:08 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

It was a 109 I think maybe a '190, I will check.
Guy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

<quote>
Wing commander Beamont, who had shot down his 10th enemy aircraft (a
Focke-Wulf Fw190D, at over 530 mph) near Arnhem on 2 October...
</quote>

Also, referring to an Me262
<quote>
Pilot Officer R W Cole of No 3 squadron...
spotted the jet streaking north towards Nijmegen at low level. Opening
up to full boost, Cole put the nose of the Tempest down and went after
the "rat",quickly reaching about 530mph and closing to 200yards before
opening fire...
[the 262] then crashed near Grave...
the pilot bailed out
</quote>

from 'The Hawker Typhoon and Tempest' Francis K Mason

Guy

Rob Arndt

2008-11-22 18:56:33 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The horizontal AS of a V-1 was only between 360-400 mph. Most of the
best a/c intercepting it had to slow down a bit to shoot at it from a
safe distance!

And Tempests were not the best V-1 interceptors. The Mossie, Spit, and
Mustang scored hundreds of kills while 501 Squadron only killed 59 of
which Beamont killed 31 :)

Tempest is just above the Meteor in kills (13).

Beamont probably was taking a dive for 530 mph; I doubt he could have
done it in level flight as the superior Spiteful Mk.XVI only achieved
between 504-509 mph in one unofficial test-run in 1945. Other than
that its speed was to be 490 mph...

Rob

guy

2008-11-22 19:21:52 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The horizontal AS of a V-1 was only between 360-400 mph. Most of the
best a/c intercepting it had to slow down a bit to shoot at it from a
safe distance!
And Tempests were not the best V-1 interceptors. The Mossie, Spit, and
Mustang scored hundreds of kills while 501 Squadron only killed 59 of
which Beamont killed 31 :)
Tempest is just above the Meteor in kills (13).
Beamont probably was taking a dive for 530 mph; I doubt he could have
done it in level flight as the superior Spiteful Mk.XVI only achieved
between 504-509 mph in one unofficial test-run in 1945. Other than
that its speed was to be 490 mph...
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Er, you have slipped up for once there Rob - rare I know;-), I do not
have exact figures but Flight Sergeant Rose alone got 12, 3 sqdn got
146 in July alone!
On 26 July 150 wing (all Tempests) achieved their 500th V1 kill
top scorer against V1s was Sqdn Leader J Berry (3 sqdn and 501 sqdn)
with 61.5 V1 kills
<quote>
the 3 Tempest squadrons destroyed more flying bombs than all the other
fighters combined...
</quote>
source as above

also more Me262s were destroyed by Tempests than any other fighter

Guy

Rob Arndt

2008-11-23 00:37:56 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The horizontal AS of a V-1 was only between 360-400 mph. Most of the
best a/c intercepting it had to slow down a bit to shoot at it from a
safe distance!
And Tempests were not the best V-1 interceptors. The Mossie, Spit, and
Mustang scored hundreds of kills while 501 Squadron only killed 59 of
which Beamont killed 31 :)
Tempest is just above the Meteor in kills (13).
Beamont probably was taking a dive for 530 mph; I doubt he could have
done it in level flight as the superior Spiteful Mk.XVI only achieved
between 504-509 mph in one unofficial test-run in 1945. Other than
that its speed was to be 490 mph...
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Er, you have slipped up for once there Rob - rare I know;-), I do not
have exact figures but Flight Sergeant Rose alone got 12, 3 sqdn got
146 in July alone!
On 26 July 150 wing (all Tempests) achieved their 500th V1 kill
top scorer against V1s was Sqdn Leader J Berry (3 sqdn and 501 sqdn)
with 61.5 V1 kills
<quote>
the 3 Tempest squadrons destroyed more flying bombs than all the other
fighters combined...
</quote>
source as above
also more Me262s were destroyed by Tempests than any other fighter
Guy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You got me... must have just listed 501 squadron as representing all
Tempests???

As for the 262, I can believe that. But more could have been saved if
the German pilots had not panicked and tried to either dive away or
dogfight- they were instructed to just open the throttles wide and
distance themselves away from trouble. But transitioning from a Me Bf
109 or Fw-190, the typical Luftwaffe pilot instinct probably over-
ruled any instructions given. Ar-234 pilots OTOH practiced the
instructions very well :)

Rob

Rob Arndt

2008-11-23 00:41:59 UTC

This site claims around 800 V-1 kills by the Tempests:
http://www.hawkertempest.se/WorldWar2.htm

Rob

guy

2008-11-23 08:34:46 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The horizontal AS of a V-1 was only between 360-400 mph. Most of the
best a/c intercepting it had to slow down a bit to shoot at it from a
safe distance!
And Tempests were not the best V-1 interceptors. The Mossie, Spit, and
Mustang scored hundreds of kills while 501 Squadron only killed 59 of
which Beamont killed 31 :)
Tempest is just above the Meteor in kills (13).
Beamont probably was taking a dive for 530 mph; I doubt he could have
done it in level flight as the superior Spiteful Mk.XVI only achieved
between 504-509 mph in one unofficial test-run in 1945. Other than
that its speed was to be 490 mph...
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Er, you have slipped up for once there Rob - rare I know;-), I do not
have exact figures but Flight Sergeant Rose alone got 12, 3 sqdn got
146 in July alone!
On 26 July 150 wing (all Tempests) achieved their 500th V1 kill
top scorer against V1s was Sqdn Leader J Berry (3 sqdn and 501 sqdn)
with 61.5 V1 kills
<quote>
the 3 Tempest squadrons destroyed more flying bombs than all the other
fighters combined...
</quote>
source as above
also more Me262s were destroyed by Tempests than any other fighter
Guy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You got me... must have just listed 501 squadron as representing all
Tempests???
As for the 262, I can believe that. But more could have been saved if
the German pilots had not panicked and tried to either dive away or
dogfight- they were instructed to just open the throttles wide and
distance themselves away from trouble. But transitioning from a Me Bf
109 or Fw-190, the typical Luftwaffe pilot instinct probably over-
ruled any instructions given. Ar-234 pilots OTOH practiced the
instructions very well :)
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

One dirty trick employed by the Tempests was that whenever an Me262 or
an Arado234 was spotted they did not try to intercept, but instead
went to the known airfields, often getting a kill on lanfing approach.
The Germans got wise to this and then deploted massive light AA which
stopped this tactic eventually.

Guy

Rob Arndt

2008-11-23 12:12:38 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The horizontal AS of a V-1 was only between 360-400 mph. Most of the
best a/c intercepting it had to slow down a bit to shoot at it from a
safe distance!
And Tempests were not the best V-1 interceptors. The Mossie, Spit, and
Mustang scored hundreds of kills while 501 Squadron only killed 59 of
which Beamont killed 31 :)
Tempest is just above the Meteor in kills (13).
Beamont probably was taking a dive for 530 mph; I doubt he could have
done it in level flight as the superior Spiteful Mk.XVI only achieved
between 504-509 mph in one unofficial test-run in 1945. Other than
that its speed was to be 490 mph...
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Er, you have slipped up for once there Rob - rare I know;-), I do not
have exact figures but Flight Sergeant Rose alone got 12, 3 sqdn got
146 in July alone!
On 26 July 150 wing (all Tempests) achieved their 500th V1 kill
top scorer against V1s was Sqdn Leader J Berry (3 sqdn and 501 sqdn)
with 61.5 V1 kills
<quote>
the 3 Tempest squadrons destroyed more flying bombs than all the other
fighters combined...
</quote>
source as above
also more Me262s were destroyed by Tempests than any other fighter
Guy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You got me... must have just listed 501 squadron as representing all
Tempests???
As for the 262, I can believe that. But more could have been saved if
the German pilots had not panicked and tried to either dive away or
dogfight- they were instructed to just open the throttles wide and
distance themselves away from trouble. But transitioning from a Me Bf
109 or Fw-190, the typical Luftwaffe pilot instinct probably over-
ruled any instructions given. Ar-234 pilots OTOH practiced the
instructions very well :)
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Pretty hard to intercept Ar-234s flying at 30,000 ft. The Tempests
shot down a few of them in the air, but more on the ground upon t/o or
landing. Spits Mk.XIV accounted for more Me-262s than the Tempest, but
German AA gunners in 1945 took out over 450 RAF fighters that tried to
bounce the jets and also the Fw-190D-9s shot down loitering Allied
fighters... sometimes being shot down themselves upon return by
overzealous Luftwaffe field AA units that shot at everything they
could that approached the field. The Fw-190D-9s were subsequently
painted red underneath the wings for identification!

Rob

guy

2008-11-22 19:25:32 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The horizontal AS of a V-1 was only between 360-400 mph. Most of the
best a/c intercepting it had to slow down a bit to shoot at it from a
safe distance!
And Tempests were not the best V-1 interceptors. The Mossie, Spit, and
Mustang scored hundreds of kills while 501 Squadron only killed 59 of
which Beamont killed 31 :)
Tempest is just above the Meteor in kills (13).
Beamont probably was taking a dive for 530 mph; I doubt he could have
done it in level flight as the superior Spiteful Mk.XVI only achieved
between 504-509 mph in one unofficial test-run in 1945. Other than
that its speed was to be 490 mph...
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Yes it was in a dive, the point being that nothing else allied was
controllable enough to hit anything at that sort of speed.

Guy

guy

2008-11-22 19:33:15 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The horizontal AS of a V-1 was only between 360-400 mph. Most of the
best a/c intercepting it had to slow down a bit to shoot at it from a
safe distance!
And Tempests were not the best V-1 interceptors. The Mossie, Spit, and
Mustang scored hundreds of kills while 501 Squadron only killed 59 of
which Beamont killed 31 :)
Tempest is just above the Meteor in kills (13).
Beamont probably was taking a dive for 530 mph; I doubt he could have
done it in level flight as the superior Spiteful Mk.XVI only achieved
between 504-509 mph in one unofficial test-run in 1945. Other than
that its speed was to be 490 mph...
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Beamonts description of the Meteor I (with the relatively puny
Welland) as a V1 killer, having flown one, was 'it was not much good'

Guy

guy

2008-11-22 21:05:45 UTC

What did Beaumont intercept at that speed, a V-1?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The horizontal AS of a V-1 was only between 360-400 mph. Most of the
best a/c intercepting it had to slow down a bit to shoot at it from a
safe distance!
And Tempests were not the best V-1 interceptors. The Mossie, Spit, and
Mustang scored hundreds of kills while 501 Squadron only killed 59 of
which Beamont killed 31 :)
Tempest is just above the Meteor in kills (13).
Beamont probably was taking a dive for 530 mph; I doubt he could have
done it in level flight as the superior Spiteful Mk.XVI only achieved
between 504-509 mph in one unofficial test-run in 1945. Other than
that its speed was to be 490 mph...
Rob- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

That was a wind-up Rob was it not [-)

Guy

Gernot Hassenpflug

2008-11-22 16:08:28 UTC

Huh? Do you mean unable to open properly-sighted fire while remaining
in control of the aircraft? Or was there some technical reason the
guns would not work correctly at such high speeds?

--
Gernot Hassenpflug

guy

2008-11-22 17:26:30 UTC

Post by Gernot Hassenpflug

Huh? Do you mean unable to open properly-sighted fire while remaining
in control of the aircraft? Or was there some technical reason the
guns would not work correctly at such high speeds?
--
Gernot Hassenpflug- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Two reasons
1:- Structural strength.
2:- Stability - nothing else had the controlability and hence was a
good enough gun platform.

Guy

Gernot Hassenpflug

2008-11-23 06:08:31 UTC

Post by Gernot Hassenpflug